Question regarding roll film back on Crown Graphic

Discussion in 'Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by mfratt, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    I just received my first Graphic camera... a Crown Graphic 23. I know its technically a medium format camera, but I'm posting it here because (a) it has more in common with LF cameras than most MF and (b) I figure all the 4x5 Graphic people hang out here. Anyway, The camera came with a "23" Graphic 6x9 roll film back (knob wind). When I remove the ground glass, and secure the roll back, it seems to seat properly, but there is nothing stopping the entire back from sliding off the camera to the right. There is enough friction that it doesn't just fall off, but a nudge will push it pretty easily, potentially exposing my roll. Am I missing something here? It is a graflok back, btw.
     
  2. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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    I've got a 23 Speed Graphic with a couple of roll backs. The Graflok back silver 'slide tabs' should slide down to hold it firmly in place.
     
  3. summicron1

    summicron1 Subscriber

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    should be a ridge on the right side of the back of the camera that locks into a dent along the same side of the roll film holder....if ur graflok back is securing it properly, should all be solid. Post pics?
     
  4. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    Well I did secure it topand bottom with the metal tabs, but that doesnt stop it from sliding. I will take another look and post some pictures when I get home.
     
  5. graywolf

    graywolf Member

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    Most likely it is a Graflex back. On the Graphic the roll film back has a rail and the camera a groove. If it is a Graflex rather than a Graphic back, it has a goove instead of a rail and there is nothing to prevent it sliding. One solution you could try is to put something into one of the grooves so they well lock together when the back is fitted.

    The other possibility is that someone ground the rail off the back at sometime (To fit the back on a strange camera?) in the past. I have no idea how you could fix that.

    Anyway, if the rail on the Graphic back fits down into the grove on the camera, the back can not slide.
     
  6. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    black masking tape is cheap and works wonders.
     
  7. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    A picture of the camera back and the film holder would sure reduce the need for guessing. Sounds to me like an equipment incompatibility. This should be an easy fete to accomplish I'd the equiipment Is correct.
     
  8. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

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    Brian, did you mean feet? Or feat?
     
  9. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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  10. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    Pheat. :wink:
     
  11. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    It is a Graflok back. The film back seems to fit securely and snug, minus its ability to shift out on the left side.

    Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics. I was being lazy :/
     

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  12. erikg

    erikg Member

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    That roll film holder looks it's intended for a graflex back, not a graflok, as greywolf suggested. It seems to have a slot, rather than a groove.
     
  13. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

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    I have both flavors of Graflex-made roll holder, for Graflok and Graflex backs. Erik and greywolf are right. That's a roll holder made to fit a Graflex SLR.

    Interestingly, early 120 film roll holders for 2x3 and possibly larger Graflexes have both the slot and the groove, will fit both Graflex and Graflok backs. I have one.
     
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  15. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    Okay so I just realized that this thing came with instructions!!

    But I'm still confused.

    "GRAFLEX ROLL FILM HOLDER INSTRUCTIONS

    The roll film holders can be attacked to Graflex or Graflok backs. To fit to the Graflok back, a Graphic Roll Holder is required..."

    What is a Graphic Roll Holder? Isn't that what I'm trying to attach? One needs a Graphic Roll Holder to fit a Graphic Roll Holder? Wha!?
     
  16. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    sometimes people sell things that look like they go together but don't ...
    or they sell things that are loose and wobbly ( and the seller has no clue ) ...

    does the roll back seats the way it is supposed to, the light dam/protruding groove slides into its counterpart on the back of your camera ..
    without the tabs slid over when you put the roll back on, does it stick out funny or is it flush?
    you say it is loose slide the chrome tabs over secure the back to your camera but it seems like it will fall off the back of your camera ...
    are the chrome tabs loose, and need to be tightened ?
    if your roll back seats too low in the camera maybe your sliding tabs aren't really holding it snug.
    my roll backs have a protruding edge that the sliders grab onto ...
    you can build up thickness by putting a plastic stirrer or something on the edge under a piece of tape. it might add thickness to the edge
    so your chrome sliders can grab the back and keep it on the back of your camera ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2012
  17. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    This is the strange thing... it seems to fit perfectly.... *almost.* It is very snug, seats well, fits properly, light-sealing lips all line up, and the instruction booklet says that it s a Graflok back - but theres just this one quirk of nothing holding it from being pushed off to the right.
     
  18. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    does the roll holder fall off the camera if you tip it to the side when you have it attached, or when you remove the darkslide ?


    are you still in boston for the summer ?

    - john
     
  19. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    It won't fall off just due to gravity, and I can even pull the dark slide without pulling the back off - but its not secured. I can see the biggest problem it would cause is working handheld without the external grip, as the palm of my left hand inevitably pushes the back off.

    Yes, I'm here for the summer.
     
  20. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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    See http://lommen9.home.xs4all.nl/holders/index.html for clarification about the different back types.

    Note the comment under '120 Roll Film Holder' - "These newer roll holders are made for film which is thinner than the older film. The new Rapid Vance Roll Holder have extra guide rollers to hold this thinner film pressed against the film gate." I ran into this problem about 1960 and the company came out with a spring modification kit to hold the (then) newer films flat. There may still be unmodified backs around.
     
  21. Zathras

    Zathras Subscriber

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    Hi,

    The problem you are having is a compatibility issue between two types of backs made for Graflex cameras. Your camera and holder don't match.

    Could you please post a couple of photos of the other side of that roll film back? It should not have "Graphic" printed on it as it is NOT a Graphic holder, but a GRAFLEX holder. It will not attach securely to your camera as it was designed for the 2x3 RB Graflex SLR camera, not the Speed or Crown Graphics and the locking mechanism is different. You have to be very careful about which roll film holder you buy for a camera made by Graflex. There are two main types of backs for Graflex cameras. There is the Graphic back, of which the Graflok back is a later variant, and there is the older Graflex back, which is quite different. You also need to know what size camera the back is for, since roll film backs are also available for the bigger cameras and they share many common parts with the smaller backs. This has caused much confusion in the past and will undoubtedly continue well into the future. I would strongly suggest going to graflex.org and reading everything you can find about the various roll film backs that Graflex made.

    BTW, if you should decide to sell the roll film back, I would be interested in discussing the possibility of purchasing it from you, via pm.

    Mke
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2012
  22. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    Its a 23 Graflex back.
     

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  23. Zathras

    Zathras Subscriber

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    There's the problem. GRAFLOK back on the camera, and a holder made for cameras with a GRAFLEX back. Did you buy the camera and roll back together?
     
  24. mfratt

    mfratt Member

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    Yes, they came together.

    Honestly, I'll probably just make due. I'll just have to be careful while using it, and restrain myself to using my Vivitar pistol grip while working handheld with the back on. I'd try to find the proper back, but I was having a hard time finding the newer style backs with 6x9 openings. Most of them seemed to be 6x7. And they cost half of what I paid for this whole outfit.
     
  25. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    why don't you go to MASSART or EP LEVINES or one of the other photo schools in boston ( AIB / SMFA / NESOP )
    and ask someone there who may be familiar with roll backs+graflock backs to take a look at your camera &C ...
    i am south of you about 1.5 hours, i'd be happy to meet with you
    someplace random to take a look at your camera ( and bring my speed for comparison )
    but i don't travel light these days ( i have 3 assistants i have to bring with me everywhere ) .. so it might be tricky ...

    i have a feeling the back mates fine with your camera, the sliders attach to the back fine, but you aren't used to the
    3rd side not being attached, so it seems-like something is wrong because all the other cameras you have used the back attaches
    on all 4 sides.

    john
     
  26. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

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    John, the problem has been diagnosed correctly. The OP has a roll holder made to attach to a Graflex (as in SLR back) and a camera with a Graflok back.

    I just replicated it with a "23" Graflex -- so marked -- back and a 2x3 Crown Graphic that has a Graflok back.

    The solution is to buy a "23" Graphic -- so marked -- roll holder or an RH-8 roll holder to fit a 2x3 Graphic. With patience, one can be bought through eBay for a reasonable price.