QUESTIONS:

Discussion in '35mm Cameras and Accessories' started by amundenovskiy, Dec 25, 2011.

  1. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    I am New to film Photography (ABSALUTELY LOVE IT!) And I've been reading and reading about ISO, Shutter speed (I think thats ISO?) Aperture/F-Stop and theres a third one or something UGH i can't remember...

    but all 2 or three of them go hand in hand I think to take a great picture...
    My pictures I've developed I think look like they don't have enough light (I used flash) I am using a Pentax sn1? (I think) and I have a Pentax flash, AND its built-in flash... I think NOW it is the F-stop... I said it to 5.6 I think... But it differs from different lighting conditions...? Can someone please explain to me in detail without pushing links to read or books to read please (Regardless HOW great this link or book is it will be useless to me, I've been ALLLLL over the internet and my university text bok and I'm still here hahaha )


    BITTE UND DANKE!!!!!
     
  2. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Welcome to film photography.

    None of that is actually specific to film photography. The same applies to digital photography as well. ISO says how sensitive your film is to the light. Aperture and shutter speed combined with the light reflected from your subject defines how much light will actually hit the film.

    For example...
    Let's say your subject is well lit in day light sun.
    Let's say your film is ISO 400.
    Let's say your shutter speed is 1/400.
    Let's say your aperture is about f/16.

    Then, you are LIKELY to get a good exposure.

    Because your shutter speed and aperture combined defines the amount of light that will hit your film, the combination that will work is actually endless.
    You could increase the shutter speed and decrease the aperture opening or do the other way around. There's a simple math to it (but I won't go into that now)

    Does that help at all? This is very basic, yet a very important aspect of photography. Because combination is endless, there isn't a single example that will explain all. Actually, there's a mathematical formula for it as well. I'd say this is a scientific part of an artistic field of photography. It is possible to do it by feel but for complete understanding, it requires a bit of logical approach.
     
  3. Erik Petersson

    Erik Petersson Subscriber

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    I'll try to help you. First, ISO is written on the film cartridge. Put a film in the camera and ISO is fixed for the duration of that film. Set the ISO on your camera to the same value (if your camera has a light meter) and then stop thinking of it for the time being.

    I think it will be easier to learn if you skip the flash for now.

    I am not familiar with your camera. Can you put it in manual regime? Then do that. Then ask yourself how much light hits the film. You can either open up the aperture or make it smaller. This is one variable. You can also increase or decrease the shutter time and this is the other variable. The apertures and the different shutter speeds are set so that each full step (or "stop" as it is called) either doubles or halves the film's exposure to light. So if you decrease shutter time one stop, and open up the aperture one stop, the film's exposure to light remains the same. Works in both directions and for any number of stops.

    Now, your camera's light meter might be broken. Or your film was old and had expired. Or the development of the film was not done well. Or your flash did not work. First check your camera's light meter to another camera. Digital is ok, you can see if its in the ballpark.

    It might also be bad scanning of properly developed negatives.
     
  4. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    the reason your photographs were poorly-lit is because
    your subject was further from your camera than you had estimated.
    as light travels it loses intensity, so you need to either decrease your shutter speed
    ( drag your shutter at a slower speed from the sync speed )
    or open your lens up an additional stop to let more light in to the film.
    the guide numbers on your lens probably said "x-distance use f5.6" but you were
    further than whatever distance was stated for that fstop.
    the next time, expose your at f2 instead of f5.6.
     
  5. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    Thanks jnanian it was very helpful :D
     
  6. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    I don't want to sound stupid like someone thinks (not you) but how exactly do you compare this? What does a light meter look like on a camera?
     
  7. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Can you check again as to what model of pentax you have? sn1 doesn't sound familiar. If we know which model it is, we may be better able to point to what you need to look for or expect to see.

    The meter is built into most relatively modern 35mm cameras. It usually gives some sort of indication in the viewfinder and/or on an LCD screen on the camera as to which shutter speed and aperture the camera recommends when you point it at a subject. If set to "Auto" the camera may also set those settings for you, unless you choose to over-ride them.
     
  8. eddie

    eddie Subscriber

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    If you shot with the flash, I think Jnanian's answer is probably correct. How far from the camera was your subject?
     
  9. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi again

    i just realized it is a point + shoot camera with a built in flash, so you probably can't adjust your shutter speed or flash intensity or fstops, or over ride the pre set settings by faking a different asa/iso ...
    so, instead of having your camera set to " auto flash ( lightingbolt ) " have it set to " fill in" so it does just fill flash.
    you do this by pressing the lightening bolt button on your camera until it cycles through all the flash modes ( probably red eye, auto, none and fill flash )
    the fill flash mode will meter for ambient ambient light, and then add some extra flash ... it is probably the best mode to have a point/shoot camera.

    good luck !
    john
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2011
  10. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    hun the camera is a SF1n (on the camera) your right it isn't a sn1 but I was close! Ok cool. I have been thinking about actually buying a light meter - I can't find one really but I'm checking out kijiji and ebay.ca regularly (also because I wanna get a Rolleiflex 2.8 for the start of my medium. Or a Mamiya rb67) The camera is semi automatic I believe. you set it to manual or auto-focus... Ah. ISO is manual (But digital if you get what I mean?) and EF+/- is also manual (What is this. Exposure?? On my Canon g10 powershot Digital camera I have this dial. and I understand it, but ifI change this AT ALL the camera will NOT take a picture :S In the little LCD screen if I set aperture to auto (A = i think means Auto) the camera usually pics 4.0 for ANY picture (Mall lighting) I haven't tried it outside seeing if It chooses another f-stop....
     
  11. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    hey - I'm not sure what camera that is LOL... I ouldnt think my camera is a point in shoot. you have to adjust everything :S unless you move the gizmo to automatique LOL.... Anyway I'll check out my camera, Im going to test out different rolls of film...
     
  12. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    My Camera Pentax SF1N is currently loaded with 400iso film by Kodak (I think either that or Pharmaprix easypix... anyway)
    So I think I remember hearing someone say I should put my camera to 400ISO for this film right?

    And then I adjust the f-stop/aperture depending on lighting availability (assuming NO flash is to be used at all)
    Right?

    What is the EF+/- to do with a picture. + numbers make something more exposed. and -less exposed. I usually keep it at 0 or +0.5 for added contrast (Because I like deep rich contract in pictures) is this an error?
     
  13. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    According to some web searches I did, Pentax SF1n is an auto exposure capable SLR camera. If that is the case, I'd suggest setting camera's ISO to match the film. (that would be 400) Then set the camera to aperture priority mode, which would be "A", or in program mode "P" first. Then, set the aperture somewhere that will keep your shutter speed above 1/60s or so. Once this is done, camera itself will measure the amount of light available and set the shutter speed automatically.

    EF+- probably is exposure compensation. Don't mess with those, yet. Keep it at zero. It has nothing to do with contrast.

    I think what's in order is to find and download a manual for this camera, setup all the knobs and stuff to default setting, then do some test shoot. For all we know, it's possible that camera may be in some strange mode or setup. Most camera manuals do tell you where the setting should be set to, to start shooting.

    I'd suggest doing this without a flash as it will add another element to consider.

    Assuming everything is working as it should, the camera should expose your film correctly most of the time. If it doesn't you got a problem....
     
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  15. John Koehrer

    John Koehrer Subscriber

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    Could it be a SF1? That would allow the combination of flash units you mention.

    Anyway, to clear up a couple of things for you:
    ISO is the FILM speed and tells you what film is more or less sensitive to light.

    Shutter speed is 1/2 of the combination for correct exposure. When the shutter speed is set to a high speed, you can freeze motion of a fast moving subject.
    When it is set to a slow speed, that same subject will be blurred.

    F stop (or aperture) is the second half of the exposure combination, when the combination is correct you have proper exposure. When it's wrong your pictures can be either light or dark. Some people refer to apertures being "open" or "closed", "higher or lower" and the language can be confusing.
    Open or lower mean the smaller values on the lens but the bigger opening. Closed or higher are the larger numbers, or the smaller opening.
    The more common use is opening up or stopping down the aperture.
     
  16. zsas

    zsas Member

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    Looks the the manual is avail at Butkus.org, after donation.

    It looks like there is a metered manual mode, I highly recommend learning in that mode, anything else will automate. Keep a memo pad in your pocket and notate at a min: frame number, ISO of film, shutter speed, aperture

    Have fun!

    http://www.butkus.org/chinon/pentax/pentax_sf1/pentax_sf1.htm
     
  17. Erik Petersson

    Erik Petersson Subscriber

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    You asked about how to compare your light meter with another camera. Analog or digital doesn't matter.

    There should be an indication what combination of shutter speed and aperture to choose. Maybe an lcd-screen.

    What you do is you take your other camera and see what combination that camera chooses (when it is set for ISO 400). Point the camera towards a a large evenly lit object, such as a wall for example. For this test, make sure that there are no brighter or darker areas. Ok, you got a value, let's say ISO 400, f16, speed 400. Then point your Pentax towards exactly the same object, not once but say five times. Do you get consistent values? Are the values close to what you got with your other camera? If not, well you might have a problem.
     
  18. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    andy's suggestion is a good one!

    go the butkus.org, make a donation, get the manual and read it ...
    it explains exactly your problem and gives a variety of solutions,
    which include recommendations given to you here ...

    ( i know you have an aversion to internet forums,
    i hope you don't have an aversion to reading your camera's manual. )

    good luck !
     
  19. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    Let me recommend working without flash until you master all the exposure basics and can make the best possible use of available light.

    After that, look up "guide number" on wikipedia and make sure you understand it, then you'll be ready to graduate to flash photography.

    Sorry for the unsolicited pedagogy :wink:
     
  20. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    HI :D I think I figured it all out! :D

    I have a fully manual camera, my friend sold me last I was back home (BC)... its a Mamiya/Sekor (I prob over paid. but anyway) I have Kodak 400/27 in, and there is a ASA/DEUTSCHE-IN Number, which I set to 400-27, then I select the appropriate shutter speed. right now my camera is set to 125? not sure between 60(in red) and 125 AND the Aperture I have at 4.5 (indoor light) also I don't use a flash on this camera, because there is not holding gizmo for it, (Its a pain in the Tüches to hold a flash when its plugged in (via cord)

    So am I doing this right? lol ? haha
    The f-stop/aperture on this camera is f-11/f-2.8 or something... and for not so good light I have set it to 4.[x] inside another film BOX (200/24) the film said under different lights which aperture/f-stop to use so I just picked, but does it different between 200/24 and 400/27 ?
    (My 400 film did NOT have a chart thing, I looked inside and outside, all it says is good in all light conditions which to me aint very helpful :D

    SO I have my manual camera figured out, BUT my Pentax I am downloading its manual (For free I AINT paying no donation. FEH!) And I'm finding out I think it does the ASA/DIN automatically because you can only adjust the shutter speed and f-stop (And the camera has auto-focus, which is turn on/off I leave that to auto because i find it easier... because I have to take off my glasses to take a picture and I can't see how focused it is on my camera :S Also I will leave the f-stop on automatic as well on this roll of film and see if that was a problem fixer (Ill have to wait until develop these rolls - will let y'all know!)

    P.S. I hope y'all had a WONDERFUL Christmas, or Chanukah. My Chanukah was pretty good this year! :D
    ?HUGS!
     
  21. E. von Hoegh

    E. von Hoegh Member

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    Get and read a manual for the Mamiya. Yes, there is a difference between 200ASA and 400ASA film. You really should get and study a book on basic photography, it will help answer many of the questions you post here. Do some homework.
     
  22. ME Super

    ME Super Member

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    A short write up about the relationships between EV, ISO, f/stop and shutter speed.

    When not doing flash photography, there are four things that determine whether a scene will be properly exposed. They are:

    1. The amount of light falling on the scene (we'll call this Exposure Value (EV)).
    2. The sensitivity (ISO) of the film.
    3. The aperture (f/stop).
    4. The shutter speed.

    A bright sunny day has an EV of 15. The "Sunny f/16" rule says that correct exposure for this scene at f/16 is the closest reciprocal of the film speed. So for ISO 100 film, the correct exposure is 1/125 second at f/16. For ISO 200 film, the correct exposure is 1/250 second at f/16. For ISO 400 film, a correct exposure is 1/500 at f/16. For ISO 800 or 1000 film, 1/1000 second at f/16. Different scenes have different EVs. Open shade has an EV of 12. Sunsets are at EV 11. Brightly lit home interiors are at EV 6, average home interiors are at EV 5, nighttime scenes away from city lights and under a full moon are at EV -3.

    There are many equivalent exposure values. Let's suppose that you've got ISO 400 film loaded in your camera, and your scene is an EV 15 scene. The following aperture/shutter speed combinations will give you correct, equivalent exposures (note that not all of these combinations may be available on your camera (for example, my camera's top shutter speed is 1/2000 second so the 1/4000 and 1/8000 second exposures are not available to me without filters, which is outside the scope of this post)):

    • 1/250 second at f/22
    • 1/500 second at f/16
    • 1/1000 second at f/11
    • 1/2000 second at f/8
    • 1/4000 second at f/5.6
    • 1/8000 second at f/4

    For a good write-up about exposure when you don't have a light meter handy, along with two handy charts to calculate f/stop and shutter speed combinations for a given scene, Fred Parker has a good write-up at http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm.

    Flash photography is a different beast. Every flash has a guide number. My camera's built-in flash's guide number is 42 at ISO 100. Consult your camera and/or flash manual for your flash's guide number. Guide numbers vary with film speed. With flash photography, shutter speed is less of an issue as long as it is no faster than your flash sync speed (consult your camera's manual to find the flash sync speed). For straight flash photography, divide your flash's guide number at the ISO you are using (remember, guide numbers vary with film speed) by the camera-to-subject distance. This will give you the f/stop to use to take the photo. For example, if my camera is loaded with ISO 100 film, and my flash's guide number is 42, and my camera-to-subject distance is 10 feet, then 42/10=4.2. I can set my aperture to f/4 and my subject will be properly exposed.

    Note that guide numbers can be given in feet or meters. My camera's manual actually gives me the guide numbers in meters but I'm used to working in feet. Multiply meters by 3.28 to get feet, or divide feet by 3.28 to get meters.

    I hope this helps without confusing you.
    ME Super
     
  23. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    Not to be pedantic, especially after your informative post, but I would add three more, for more advanced shooters :wink:

    1. Bellows factor
    2. Filter factor
    3. Reciprocity factor
     
  24. pbromaghin

    pbromaghin Subscriber

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    This web page in the link below - one single page - contains all the basic information that you are now asking for. There is a chart there that explains exposure in the context of the "Sunny 16" rule. Read the web page and print out the chart and carry it with you whenever you carry a camera. If you follow its guidance, you will *always* produce reasonably well-exposed photographs.

    http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

    Your Pentax is a pretty modern model with fairly advanced electronics inside. It reads a code on the film when you load it and sets the ISO for you.

    Second the recommendation to get a book on basic photography. Despite what you say about all the reading you have done, you are asking the questions that would be asked only by someone who has either not done any reading, or did and understood none of it.

    Edit to add: the web page takes the same basic theme of MESuper's excellent post into greater detail.
    2nd edit to add: Same page. Forget what I said, just listen to him. He knows more and has more patience than I do, anyway.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2011
  25. ME Super

    ME Super Member

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    Right. I did not go into filter factor, bellows factor, or reciprocity factor. Those were beyond the scope of my post. And yes, do visit the web page. It explains in much more detail how exposure works. Print the charts and follow them as they cover most of the situations you will encounter.

    I've also found it useful to put the palm of my hand in the same light as my subject, meter off of it, and open one stop. This works well for photographers with caucasian skin. It's a "poor man's incident meter". For those with different skin tone than caucasians, YMMV.
     
  26. amundenovskiy

    amundenovskiy Member

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    I think u miss understood me, I know the difference in 200ASA and 400ASA... I was asking would there be a difference in the 400, if the 200 said to use 4.8f-stop for inside conditions. for the 400ASA..... :blink: