RA-4 and C-41 Kodak Chemicals

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by fjleiter, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. fjleiter

    fjleiter Member

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    Been using the kits from Freestyle to do developing of Film/Paper. Doing enough volume now that it's getting expensive...

    Is there an actual chart or sheet somewhere of what i would need to
    buy to as far as Kodak chemicals to do put together a "kit" myself
    for both RA and C-41. Seems there are a bunch of different type of
    chemical for each stage in the kodak chems.
     
  2. John Shriver

    John Shriver Member

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    There is no correct published formula for either of these chemistry kits. They are trade secrets of Kodak and Fuji-Hunt. There are formulas on the web (and in the British Journal of Photography) pieced together from patents and other sources. They will produce color images on C-41 film and RA-4 paper, but you will not get optimal results in terms of appearance or long-term stability.

    Also, when you look at the published formulas, you'll see that some of the ingredients are pretty pricey.

    To save money, the most leveraged approach is to regenerate the bleach, it's the most expensive component. Use an aquarium pump and bubbler stone to re-oxygenate it. Also, making your own bleach from the formulas might possibly save some money.

    For developer, buy larger quantities, mix components only as needed, and refrigerate the chemicals. This is where most of the "trade secrets" are, you're paying for quality.

    The C-41 fixer is the cheapest fixer you can buy, and it's great fixer. Lots of folks use it for B&W because it's so cheap (price competition).

    Also, buy locally, shipping this stuff is expensive. Find out where local minilabs buy their soup.
     
  3. fjleiter

    fjleiter Member

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    don't really want to make the fixer/developer/bleach etc...

    meant more like I see Bleach regenerator..replenisher part a part b...Starter...etc..

    I am looking more for a shopping list of what I need to put a kit together to start off
    (not the replenishers or regenerators etc... but which actual ones I need to start)
     
  4. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    If you are looking to regenerate the bleach or mix it, the chemistry is rare and proprietary. You will need Ferric NTA (Nitrilo Triaceate) and NTA itself among other things.

    The final rinse is also proprietary and contains a fungicide.

    If you wish to mix the older bleach and stabilzer that is easy and less expensive.

    PE
     
  5. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Matt;

    Unfortunately, this page does not deal with C-41 or RA chemistry.

    PE
     
  7. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Ron:

    Doesn't the CIS49 pdf in the Reference section apply?

    Matt
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Matt;

    I searched that page and 4 others and found no CIS49. In fact, all C41 pages were black and disabled as were RA pages. So, something is different here than what you see.

    PE
     
  9. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Ron:

    Does this work?:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis49/cis49.pdf

    In the past I have noted some problems with the Kodak website re-directing links to more "local" links (in my case either Canadian or global links, when I might want UK or US links).

    Matt
     
  10. Thomas Wilson

    Thomas Wilson Member

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    This really depends...


    Are you using a table-top processor? What size tanks does it have?
    Are you using a commercial slot processor?
    Does your processor replenish chemistry?
    Are you tray-processing at room temperature?
    What is your usage? Your must adjust your replenishment rates to your actual usage (volume).


    I use Fuji Hunt chemistry for a couple of reasons.


    The Kodak representative "couldn't be bothered" and refused to return e-mails, even one asking to be referred to a distributor.


    The representatives at Fuji Hunt were very helpful determining my usage, replenishment rates, the best chemistry for me, a shopping list, contact information for a local distributor that ships hazmat with no qualms, and, they will happily answer even the dumbest of questions.


    Fuji Hunt chemistry is cheaper and the results are flawless.


    For the record, I use the 25 gallon Fuji Digital RA Pro developer with the standard RA Bleach Fix replenisher, also purchased in 25 gallon size) in a Hope RA20T4. The processor is plumbed, uses a two tank fresh water rinse, and replenishment system. I print a mix of Fuji Pro 160 S&C and Kodak Portra 160 & 400, NC & VC on the Fuji CA papers. The cost per print is so low I just don't worry about it any more.

    Your mileage may vary.
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Matt;

    That worked. Thanks!

    PE
     
  12. Dave Dawson

    Dave Dawson Member

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  13. Photo Engineer

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    I've gotten my chemicals list for C-41 in hand now. I don't have the RA chemicals list handy but will add some data at the end.

    C-41 special chemicals

    Developer: CD-4, Hydroxyl Amine Sulfate. All other chemicals are standard to B&W processes. pH = 10.1

    Bleach (Not bleach III): Ammonium Ferric EDTA, Disodium EDTA or EDTA + Ammonium Hydroxide. pH = 6.5

    Stabilizer (old style): Formalin 37%, Photo Flo 200 . pH as mixed

    RA-4

    Developer: CD-3, Diethyl Hydroxylamine Oxalate + several other exotic things not in hand including some Lithium salts. pH 10.1

    Blix: Ammonium Ferric EDTA, Disodium EDTA or Ammonium salt of EDTA, Ammonium Hypo, Ammonium Sulfite. pH 6.5

    Any other chemicals except for the RA- developer are common photo chemicals such as KI, NaBr, NaCl, Na2SO3, Na2CO3 and etc.

    PE
     
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  15. Jamie S

    Jamie S Member

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    Thanks for the links that helped demystify the vast array of Kodak chemistry, although after searching through the on-line catalogs I have a question about bleach. Is the bleach interchangeable, can I use RA-4 bleach for C-41 or should I buy the separate bleach for each process? The reason I'm asking is that I've found ra-4 bleach in small quantities but c-41 bleach they want you to buy a lifetime supply

    jamie
     
  16. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    RA4 uses a bleach-fix or blix. It should not be used for C41 or E6.

    The E6 and C41 bleaches can be interchanged with some alteration of time. You have to work that out for yourself though, as I don't have the data.

    PE
     
  17. Jamie S

    Jamie S Member

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    Ok went back and looked at the listing and the description from Calumet just said bleach/replenisher but when I looked at a larger picture the bottle said bleach/fix And now I know to make sure the bleach is for the right type of film also, so bleach isn't just bleach.
    Thank you
    jamie
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Jamie;

    From the sound of it, you need to study up on the processes that you wish to get involved with just for your own peace of mind and pocketbook.

    Best of luck.

    PE
     
  19. Jamie S

    Jamie S Member

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    At this point in time I am getting decent results using the kits. I am working at making the next step and trying to figure the actual chemicals needed and exactly how they work. I blame my doctor he told me that to get my brain back to where it was before my stroke I needed to work it and learn stuff, the only problem is that everything that goes in is spindled, folded, and mutilated. All I can do is to endeavor to persevere and to stay focused on the next step and not on the finish and hope for understanding when my brain stops working and I ask a question without thinking
    ending demonstration of my now poor communication skills
    jamie
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Jamie;

    I'll do my best to try and help. Just ask.

    See if you can get a copy of the Kodak Color Dataguide. It has lots of information in it that would help.

    Best wishes.

    PE
     
  21. Jamie S

    Jamie S Member

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    not sure if your aware of this but there is a guy that used to work at the kodak labs on this list and while a lot of his posts are over my head I'm learning a lot by reading them.
    Thank you
    jamie
     
  22. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    List? I'm not sure what list you are referrring to. I worked in the Kodak Research labs for 32 years.

    PE
     
  23. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    PE, how long are RA developers good for in un-opened bottles. I have a couple of boxes of Kodak's RA developer, each box has three bottles to mix the solution. All bottles are factory sealed, but they are at least 3-5 years old. I am looking to start printing color, but I don't know if these will work or if I need to get fresh stuff.
     
  24. Photo Engineer

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    RA developer is bad when part B (the smallest bottle) turns dark brown. The other two can darken but "B" is the critical one.

    It usually takes 2+ years on the shelf, but this depends on how long since it was made.

    Mixed, in partially full bottles with an inert gas, it will keep for about 6 months. Without inert gas it will keep about 4 weeks.

    PE
     
  25. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    Thanks, I'll check the part B.
     
  26. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    I checked the bottle and part "B" is very dark, so I will have to get new stuff. I found that the university I teach at has a Nova slot processor and I want to set it up, but I am unsure of which products I need to start a system. I assume the developer like this is right, and a blix like this, but my processor has only three slots, so do I use a stop bath in the center or should I use a stabilizer like this? If the stabilizer can be used at room temperature, I may use a tray just before the final wash. My color dataguide is from 1996 and doesn't discuss the chemicals needed, just development times.