refridgerating film backs

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by speedtrials, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. speedtrials

    speedtrials Member

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    hi guys. i am new to professional colour slide film and all the obsessive compulsiveness associated therein :wink: . but i want to learn! i've shot half a roll of velvia 100 (120 size) and won't shoot the rest for a few days. should i put the entire film back (with the film in it) into the fridge until then? i thought i could put it in a ziplock to minimize condensation. or is this a BAD idea? i've tried searching here and elsewhere but couldn't find anything about putting a film back with film in it into the fridge. thanks for your responses.
     
  2. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    Bad idea. The film will keep well for a few weeks, just don't leave it on top of a radiator or stovetop.
     
  3. copake_ham

    copake_ham Inactive

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    As glbeas says...a bad idea.

    In fact a very bad idea.

    Film is not organic meat or something like that!

    It doesn't go bad if it sits at room temperature through it's stated shelf life, and well beyond. And if you just pulled it out of the fridge to shoot - putting it back into the fridge in the filmback will likely cause any ambient humidity to condense and really mess things up!

    Use it as quickly as you can (without wasting shots just to "kill the roll") - but don't worry if it just sits around for a while. The film is tougher than you! :wink:
     
  4. Pinholemaster

    Pinholemaster Member

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    No - another example of "obsessive compulsiveness" not working for you.
     
  5. speedtrials

    speedtrials Member

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    thanks everyone to setting me straight :smile:
     
  6. jstraw

    jstraw Member

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    Well, this reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask about. How about vacuum sealing loaded holders? I've thought that this would be mainly good for minimizing dust-migration into loaded holders on long trips but how about refridgeration if vacuum sealed?
     
  7. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    Even vacuum sealed you may have enough residual moisture in the air left to create condensation. If you find it's really necessary to do this put a silica gel pack in with the holder and let it do it's work for an hour or so before refrigerating. Don't bother taking the gel pack out before cooling either. I'd still say you'll be taking your chances at that.
     
  8. jstraw

    jstraw Member

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    Ok, if I vacuum pack for dusty environs, I'll forgo the fridge.
     
  9. FilmIs4Ever

    FilmIs4Ever Member

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    I don't know what you all are talking about. In a ziplock bag, assuming you provide proper time for heating up and coolling down and don't try and shoot it immediately upon removing it from the fridge, you should be just fine. I stored some unfinished rolls of 220 in a fridge for a while before finishing and then processing immediately thereafter. No adverse effects were encountered.

    Regards,

    ~Karl Borowski
     
  10. Bob F.

    Bob F. Member

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    There's nothing wrong with putting film in the fridge, the question is about putting loaded film backs in the fridge. The problem is condensation on the metal of the back resulting in subsequent rust.

    Cheers, Bob.
     
  11. FilmIs4Ever

    FilmIs4Ever Member

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    Sorry for the confusion. IDK, I use mostly leather coated, plastic component RB backs, but they have a metal (painted) film info holder and I see no signs of rust. The backs were in the freezer then subsequently in the refrigerator.
     
  12. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    I wouldn't expect to see signs of moisture damage to the metal right away, it takes time for rust to build up. If you are in a fairly dry environment you might be able to get away with doing this, but here in Georgia the air is pretty muggy most of the time and you will get condensation from any little bit of air. The water damage may not be just the metal but on the film too where it is not wrapped on the roll. I err with caution myself.
     
  13. raucousimages

    raucousimages Member

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    Just dry them in the microwave.:D
     
  14. Woolliscroft

    Woolliscroft Member

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    I won't harm the film, but moisure in the back = rust.

    David.
     
  15. FilmIs4Ever

    FilmIs4Ever Member

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    Let me repeat, there was and will continue to be no condensation on the film. If you're really anal retentive about it, you could pack the back with desicated silica gel as an extra precaution. If you're storing the back in there for years, then yes I can see there being a problem, but for a day or too, no way will there be any damage. OK, wrap it in several layers of Scott towel in addition to the silica if you want to make absolutely sure you're not going to get rust.

    Regards,

    ~Karl Borowski
     
  16. max_ebb

    max_ebb Member

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    It's not putting it in (or leaving it in) the fridge that causes condensation. It doesn't matter whether it's in there for 2 days or 2 years. Taking it out of the fridge is what causes condensation. Anybody who wears eye glasses knows that going from a warm house out into the cold doesn't cause their glasses to steam up, but going from the cold into a warm house does. Condensation is caused by warm air coming into contact with a cold surface.

    A refrigerator isn't really even all that cold. Doesn't anybody take pictures outside in freezing weather. When ever I take pictures outside in cold weather, I'm particularly concerned about getting condensation inside the lens. I always make sure that the camera (and the air inside it) warms up slowly to avoid any condensation. I take any lenses that I'm not going to be using out of my case before I take it out into the cold. I make sure to let the inside of the case get cold (so it's not warm when I put the camera/lens back in it). I leave it in the trunk until I get home so it doesn't warm up too quickly in the car. When I get home I put it in the coldest room in the house (a storage room where we leave the heat vent closed) so that it warms up slowly. After a couple hours or so in the cool room, I move it into a warm room and give it a couple more hours or so to finish warming up. I never open the case until it finishes warming up. If I just take the camera out in the cold (not the case), I wrap it up in a jacket (a cold jacket not a warm jacket) and then I do the same procedure that I do with the case to keep it from warming up too fast.

    If I were going to put a film back in the fridge, I'd probably wrap it up in a towel before taking it out (and let the towel get cold first), and then use the same procedure to keep it from warming up too quickly. It might be a bit problematic trying to warm it slowly on a hot muggy day in the summer time without AC (which would probably be the reason for putting it in the fridge in the first place), but wrapping it in a cold towel would probably help.
     
  17. jamie

    jamie Member

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    Just don't do it. Vacuum sealed or not it's a bad idea and I can't see what you gain by doing it.
     
  18. Helen B

    Helen B Member

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    Condensation does usually occur when you put a sealed container with airspace into a fridge. The air inside the container will have some moisture in it, and the dew point may very well be above the temperature of the fridge. For example the dew point in New York today is 59 °F, 15 °C - well above the temperature of most fridges.

    Moisture then condenses as the interior of the container cools, usually on the inside face of the container wall, and the conditions inside the container stabilise to 100% relative humidity (RH) at an even temperature. Moisture can then affect any surface within the container. Different materials have different affinities for moisture (they are in equilibrium at different vapour pressures, rather like water vapour moves around in snow pack, even though it is all well below freezing).

    When the container is warmed up, it warms up from the outside of course. This causes the movement of condensation from the walls to the colder surfaces further in.

    It is a good idea therefore to minimise the amount of air, and hence moisture, in the container, or to use silica gel etc.

    Most of the time the above-mentioned effects are inconsequential because of the tiny amount of moisture involved, but this may not be the case in humid environments, especially when the film emulsion has been exposed to humid air and there is a significant amount of airspace within the container. Because we often kept part-full motion picture film cans in the fridge when I worked in SE Asia, I did some rudimentary tests and a theoretical analysis. Not surprisingly it showed that it was a good idea to wrap the black bag closely round the film - which is normal practice in any case.

    Best,
    Helen
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2007
  19. Rob Landry

    Rob Landry Member

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    I put loaded 4x5 holders in the fridge all the time with no ill effects. Condensation occurs when bringing a cold object into contact with warm moist air; the moisture in the air surrounding the object cools to dewpoint and condenses. You're not going to get this same effect when placing a warm object in the fridge. Take a room temperature soda bottle and put it in the fridge, what happens? Nothing, except it starts to cool down. Another thing to remember is that your refrigerator is also a dehumidifier that removes moisture.

    If you really want to be sure no condensation occurs, put your film back in a ziplock bag but leave it open a small amount so that your fridge will extract any possible moisture that is in the bag. The next time you need to take your film out, reach in the fridge quickly, seal the ziplock and remove. Let stand at room temp for a few hours and you're fine.