Reply From HARMAN technology Limited Re True IR Film.

Discussion in 'Product Availability' started by Simon R Galley, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. Simon R Galley

    Simon R Galley Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,052
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2005
    Location:
    Cheshire UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Dear All,

    As promised I have the feedback from HARMAN regarding requests to produce a true infra red camera film.

    The internal R&D review and commercial reviews have been completed and a decision has been reached.

    In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.

    The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.

    Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.

    Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film.

    The management of HARMAN technology Limited have therefore decided NOT to progress with a true IR film at this time. Our extended red film SFX film in 35mm and 120 roll film will obviously remain in full manufacture and availability.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :
     
  2. MartinP

    MartinP Member

    Messages:
    1,346
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thank you for the work, and the careful consideration given to the idea, by all involved at Ilford.

    Maybe there might be an opportunity here to spread the word about SFX, perhaps even the multi-packs with filters as promotions again?
     
  3. sly

    sly Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,454
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Location:
    Nanaimo
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Not unexpected, but sad to hear:sad:

    Thank you Simon, for keeping us informed. Your dedication to customer relations and keeping the lines of communication open are impressive. I remain a huge Ilford fan, not just because the products are so consistently good, but because of you :smile:
     
  4. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

    Messages:
    2,115
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Location:
    NYC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    =[ oh well, maybe later on in the future then. Its funny though that long expired HIE though is still being snapped up on ebay for ~$30 a roll.
     
  5. iulian

    iulian Member

    Messages:
    69
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Well, that's sad :sad:
    Maybe some other manufacturer will look into it since you clearly stated Ilford won't do it.
     
  6. cmo

    cmo Member

    Messages:
    1,457
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Does someone know a source for some Efke 820 Aura/35mm? I have a to finish a projct in spring, and I am running out of ammunition... I just need 10 rolls.

    And today my last hope died.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2012
  7. andrew.roos

    andrew.roos Subscriber

    Messages:
    568
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Location:
    Durban, Sout
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks for considering the request and reporting back in detail on the reasons for your decision. I can't think of another major manufacturer that would take the trouble to do this.
     
  8. Michael W

    Michael W Member

    Messages:
    1,420
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Location:
    Sydney
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi Simon, I have to admit that I've never tried SFX - I must give it a go over summer here in Sydney. Can you explain what you mean by its characteristics in regards to architectural photography, as that is one subject I will try it with.
     
  9. cmo

    cmo Member

    Messages:
    1,457
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    My very last hope:

    Wouldit be possible to make an SFX without antihalation layer? That would be a good substitute for Efke's "Aura", adding the benefit of Ilford quality control.

    Many of us miss this effect:

    View attachment 61119
     
  10. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    Is that consistency really needed?
    Could not each batch offered as "special run", without spoiling the quality/consistency Ilford/Harman have built up? Such a film would only be bought be a special clientele, which themselves (due to the matter of IR lighting/reflectance) would likely not produce consistent results even by using a film stock with consistent characteristics.
     
  11. thegman

    thegman Member

    Messages:
    623
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
  12. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,928
    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Location:
    Daventry, No
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks for the explanation, Simon. What you have said seems reasonable to me.

    pentaxuser
     
  13. anikin

    anikin Subscriber

    Messages:
    843
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    Location:
    Capital of O
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thank you Simon for taking this request seriously and doing the research! The result is disappointing but not unexpected. I really appreciate your looking into it. I guess time came to learn emulsion coating...
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,970
    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Location:
    Ryde, Isle o
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The market for this is likely to be small and as such, it might be possible to run it on their pilot run machine rather than the main coating machine.

    However, it's their decision and it's good that they, and especially Simon, keep us informed. The reasons are very valid and similar to the reasons given a few years ago regarding the possibility of a Delta 25 film.


    Steve.
     
  16. Jeff Kubach

    Jeff Kubach Member

    Messages:
    6,932
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Location:
    Richmond VA.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I understand, but still sad. I love IR film.

    Jeff
     
  17. Simon R Galley

    Simon R Galley Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,052
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2005
    Location:
    Cheshire UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Dear All,

    A reply to a couple of points raised.

    Using material from a PILOT coater, whilst volume is indeed small, it is purely preparation for coating on the production machine M14, since it is a very narrow coating you cannot then convert the film to to 35mm.

    Consistency : I understand your point, the problem is that we manufacture to ISO 9001, whilst you could theoretically agree a 'new' process.... moving to a lab made emulsion ( micro production ) is not an option with an IR film.

    Whilst 'post' coating we can ( and do ) do lots of very flexible processes, such as for custom manufacture for the annual ULF film run, coating of the original parent rolls is an 'industrial' size process and very difficult to 'adjust' either economically or without affecting quality regimes and waste levels.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
     
  18. ME Super

    ME Super Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2011
    Location:
    Central Illi
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thank you Simon for getting back to us. Not what I wanted to hear, but do appreciate the time you and others at Harman/Ilford took to research this for its viability. It speaks volumes that you listen to your customers and at least consider their input, unlike many (I hesitate to say most) businesses in general today.

    Oh and I shot my first roll of FP5+ last month. Good stuff - I like it better than the XP2 and Tri-X I've shot in the past. I'm primarily a color reversal shooter and never could get into B&W photography before but somehow this roll was different.
     
  19. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,824
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thank you Simon.
     
  20. Andre Noble

    Andre Noble Member

    Messages:
    259
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Location:
    Beverly Hill
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    People have stockpiled Efke IR820 film and are running off this.
    But Ilford should reconsider totally revamping their current IR film to a true IR film.
    This would be a clear improvement to their SFX film. I never ever gave Ilford SFX serious consideration.

    BUT, I'm sure Ilford knows the market, and whatever they need to do to stay alive is OK with me! Seriously.
     
  21. Simonh82

    Simonh82 Member

    Messages:
    252
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Location:
    London, Unit
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks for feeding back to us Simon. A real shame but I am sure making sensible businesses decisions are why Ilford will be around for a long time.
     
  22. coat953

    coat953 Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Interesting and totally understandable.... I personally really like SFX. I'd like it even more if I could get it in 5x4! Any possibility of that one day?
     
  23. PKM-25

    PKM-25 Member

    Messages:
    2,004
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Enroute
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks Simon, Ilford is most certainly family to a lot of us and it is insight like this that shows why...

    Even thought it is not as IR looking as say, Rollei IR400, I would also consider SFX 200 in 4x5 since the Rollei stuff is a real pain in the rear in that format due to it's paper thin base.
     
  24. Paul Cunningham

    Paul Cunningham Subscriber

    Messages:
    229
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm happy to just hear of SFX

    Something for me to explore, at least.
     
  25. Soeren

    Soeren Member

    Messages:
    2,342
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2004
    Location:
    Naestved, DK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sad news :sad: I'm sure i would have loved the Ilford HIE. Maybe kodak will sell the formulation etc cheap :smile:

    Best regards
     
  26. madgardener

    madgardener Member

    Messages:
    411
    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Location:
    Allentown PA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Is Ilford SFX an infrared film? If I were to use SFX with infrared filters, will it give me infrared effects?