Requesting the formula to Edwal FG7, or anything close to it.

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by #1 Son, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    I have just purchase the last of the needed chemicals for making Edwal FG7. If anyone do have or know of that formula..., please post it.

    I know that there are much better developers available, but I just want this one. Its a "hang up" kind of thing.

    Thank You

    #1 Son
     
  2. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    I have not much luck getting information from Edwal on Edwal 20, I have seen a few posts in the past for FG7, but most thought that the formula provided was not correct, much the same for Edwal 20. Hope someone has the correct formula.
     
  3. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Edwal published Edwal 20 so it's correct, the was a Super 20 which wasn't published.

    FG7 has never been published but uses NaCl formed by uses HCl and NaOH in the developer so in some ways is similar to Microdol/Perceptol.

    Ian
     
  4. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    FG-7 is said to be based on Champlin #16. This has some credence since Edmund Lowe the founder of Edwal said that this was the only developer in Champlin's book that was worth anything. Another supporting fact is that both developers used chlorhydroquinone. The bad news is that this developing agent is no longer available. For a period of time Edwal has synthesized this chemical when it was no longer available. Before anyone asks the synthesis is NOT something you want to do at home. It requires two dangerous chemicals.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2014
  5. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    Thanks Guys, for the input.

    But I do have an MDS sheet on FG7, that mentioned "p-Benzoquinone", which I purchased 100 grams @98% purity. The document did not mention "chlorhydroquinone".

    So is there more information available that I have not seen or come across?

    #1 Son
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  6. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    The chemical that you purchased is not a developing but used in the synthesis of chlorhydroquinone which is the developing agent used in FG-7. P-benzoquinone is a very nasty chemical. My advice is to return it to the seller or have it disposed of as toxic waste. I quote, "Potential Acute Health Effects:
    Extremely hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion. Very hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, irritant), of inhalation. Hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering. Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing. Severe overexposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering."
     
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  7. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    The "P-benzoquinone" is a non returnable and non-refundable item. And if it is chlorhydroquinone, that I need. Do you or others, have any ideas as to where I might purchase 50 to 100 grams of the chemical?

    I want to get this project started.

    #1 Son
     
  8. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    I seriously doubt that you will find a supplier that would be willing to sell small amounts. As I said this developing agent is no longer used except in FG-7 and Edwal is not able to find a supplier at a reasonable cost to them. I did find one company that sells 25 kg drums.

    Chlorohydroquinone's redox potential is close to that of Metol rather than its parent hydroquinone. When used alone it was a nice developing agent producing brown tones when used as a paper developer. But again not that special to keep it in use as developing agent. You might be interested in Agfa Studional (Rodinal Special) which like Champlin #16 uses triethanolamine to produce fine grain.

    The people who use Amidol are presented with the same problem and have to invest together and buy 25 kg at a time from a Chinese company. The price per pound is not that reasonable.
     
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  9. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    I found a supplier of "chlorhydroquinone". Its cost is $1120.00 for 100 grams @ 90% purity, plus shipping and handling.

    I will not and can not keep 25 kg of chemicals around my home. 1 to 5 pounds is the most that I would allow, for safety or any other reason. But 25 kg is totally out of the question.

    I am going to look into this buy, and see if I can swing it. Besides, I am stuck with the P-benzoquinon. So, in for a penny, in for a pound.

    #1 Son
     
  10. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Even if you can find a supplier with more affordable prices, and if you can convince the supplier to sell and ship these chems to you, then you still don't have the recipe, and you can bet that Edwal is not going to hand it to you on a platter.
     
  11. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    That is true.

    Because I have found another supplier. But you do or can you help with a recipe of some kind?

    I knew this was not going to be easy, that is why I put the issue to the forum. I hoped, that someone out there could assist.

    Some times I get really "peed" off, because there are millions of us on this forum. The only assistance I see that persons get are from those pushing their own likes and dislikes. With the years and time that have gone by, it is really a surprise to me, that we are stilling looking and have not found the recipes to Fg7, Harvey 777, Hygrain, and a host of other developers and other formulas..., that are 30 or more years old.

    So what does that say about us.


    #1 Son
     
  12. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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  13. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Formulas cannot be patented therefore manufacturers hold them as trade secrets. Rodinal is over 100 years old and the exact formula remains a secret. For most people this is not a problem as they realize that an inventor has the right to the profits of his invention. Sorry but this is how the free market works. There are plenty of developer formulas that are in the public domain of many types; one-shot, fine grain, .... It is not like you are being deprived of the ability to develop film. There is no "holy grail" of developers and one would be hard pressed to identify the developer used when presented with only prints. In the end it is the photo that matters and not the method of attaining it.
     
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  14. Xmas

    Xmas Member

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    It says we don't have a crystal ball or Ouija board.
    So if the formula is not published we won't be able to help.
    I don't use any fine grain formula but there are some in the photo formula books probably just as effective.
    If you need fine grain use Acros, Delta100, PanF, or Tmax100, a fine grain developer won't be as effective as a fine grain film.
     
  15. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    Yes Gerald, you are correct. I am just a little stress. I wanted to succeed at this. And Jim; $1120.00, is a lot of money for less than a half a pound of chemical.

    But my ex-wife and sister, would spend that in 1 minute on perfume at Macy.

    I do not need it. But I do want it. I want to see what it is, and what it is that I can really do with it. The second supplier is asking only $715.00 @ 98% purity, including shipping and handling, out of Ohio. And I do have some formulas that call for its use. Two of them, are from Edward W. Lowe.

    I will be pulling out all of my CD and DVD data disc over the coming weekend and assemble a list of the formulas that I have collected. And as I post them after the holidays, we can see if any comes close to the FG7 formula that I am seeking. Or maybe we can tweak them a little, to see if we can improve on them.

    Oh yes, the "holy grail"..., is my divorce attorney.

    #1 Son
     
  16. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Here is the formula for Champlin #16 (Edwal 36) which is probably the inspiration for FG-7.

    Water 800 ml
    Sodium sulfite, anhydrous 50.0 g
    Chlorohydroquinone 25.0 g
    Triethanolamiine, te4chnical grade 90% 11.0 ml
    Water to make 1.0 l

    pH 8.5 (FG-7 given as 8.6)

    For use the concentrate is diluted 1+9 with a 10% solution of sodium sulfite.

    It is important to use the technical grade and not the 98% purity as the technical grade contains some diethanolamine which provides the proper pH.

    The MSDS for FG-7 indicates that it also contains hydroquinone. So you might try adjusting the formula to use both. You will have to experiment with the ratio of the two developing agents. I would suggest the equivalent of 10 g of hydroquinone and 15 g of chlorhydroquine to start. This corresponds roughly to the proportions in the MSDS. Of course you would not make up a whole liter to start until you get closer to a working developer that approximates FG-7. Increasing the hydroquinone will increase contrast while decreasing it will lessen it. Whatever you arrive at would be an FG-7 substitute and not actually FG-7. It is perfectly proper to do this. This actually could be fun to try. Let us know if you are successful.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2014
  17. #1 Son

    #1 Son Member

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    Xmas, I could do as you recommended, but there is no fun or joy in doing something easy. I desire something that I can not get or have. Like trying to go out with the prettiest girl in home room class, or the quarterback's girl friend.

    Thanks Gerald, I will add it to those that I already have. And I will start to experiment when the chlorhydroquione arrives in 7 to 12 days. Plus I received the last 25 grams of my "p-Benzoquinone" purchase today.

    And a many thanks to all those who assisted and commented.


    #1 Son