retina iia film DRAG

Discussion in '35mm Cameras and Accessories' started by johnielvis, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    just got one of these--the film really seems to drag--with the back in place, that is...back opened, it pulls film very smooth and no drag--push it together and that pressure plate REALLY presses (apparently)....I can feel a significant drag with velvia 100 anyways--is that film thicker in any way...or more "sticky"?

    any suggestions..I see that I may be able to shim the pressure plate a big where it mates but does not contact the film surface--sort of put it up an extra hair...thickness of thin adhesive tape is what I'm thinking.

    the first roll I put through it broke the perforations..I cleaned the sliding surfaces with alcohol and ran a junk roll of processed filim through it...it got easier to move the film but still significant drag--I can now load film if both sides of perforation are engaged in the sprocket--if I use the toung portion, then it tears the perfs.

    any experience and fixes folks?
     
  2. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,093
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Check the film feed side - is the rewind mechanism rotating freely or is it supplying the drag?
     
  3. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    yes...first thing I checked...I put a roll in with no spool too....so there was no drag from it at all--same thing...
     
  4. Pioneer

    Pioneer Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,715
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Location:
    Elko, Nevada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    sprocket

    Check your sprocket wheel. I have a nice little Ansco Super Regent that drags terribly when I shut the film door and it is being caused by the sprocket wheel. I haven't taken the time to try and figure out what the problem is yet so I can't help on a solution. Mine seems fine when I first turn it a revolution or two but when I turn it several times it begins to hang up.

    Might be worth checking as the designs may be similar.
     
  5. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    it ain't the sprocket wheel---that works fine and rolls fine without drag--it's the pressure plate...I was just thinking that maybe it's the heat/humidity now...could make the film want to act stickier maybe....but it's REAL sticky--gotta be the pressure plate...it's not deformed though..the back looks perfectly straight with no dents or anything either.....it is working now..but still you really have to PULL that film on the advance lever.
     
  6. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The only time I had this sort of problem with a retina it turned out to be the lengdary cocking rack wearing out might be worth a look
    Richard
     
  7. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    cocking rack? what the devil is that? the thing that advances the counter?

    no I'm sure this is related to the pressure plate since it's smooth and easy till the plate squeezes the film...we'll see...still not done with this first roll...then process and look for scratches.....
     
  8. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The cocking rack is the piece that cocks the shutter, it is connected to the film winder and is notorious for the teeth wearing, and film winding becoming stiff and sticky is a sure sign of problems with the rack, it is one of the only weaknesses in a retina,they are so well made that it would be highly unlikely that problems would occur with the pressure plate,in fact, I have never heard of this as a problem, and I have several Retinas, all working cameras, in my collection, try checking out the Chris Sherlock web site at, I think Chris's camera page, he is the best I know of for retina problems, an expert, and has a list of common retina problems, and the cocking rack is top of the list causing this sort of problem.
     
  9. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    well, it's breaking perfs though, so it can't be drag IN the camera---it's something pulling on the film
     
  10. bdial

    bdial Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,267
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Location:
    Live Free or
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    On mine there are four semi-circular cutouts next to the film rails and matchng tabs on the pressure plate. The the machined surfaces of the semi-circles are slightly higher than the film rails. Is your pressure plate distorted or missing those tabs? Next to the pressure plate on the back there is a roller to keep the film engaged on the sprockets, it should rotate freely.
    I can post a picture later if that might be helpful.
     
  11. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I know from experience that if the problem is with the cocking rack that the film will break the perforations, it eventually gets so hard that it won't wind and the shutter will not cock, but what you are describing is the first signs of rack failure, including the tearing of perforations, it is not a major problem and an easy fix, I suggest you google Chris Sherlock who knows a lot more about retinas than most you will find a lot more help with your problem, and I believe his advice comes free via E mail, at least when I have had a problem it did,
     
  12. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    how can a broken gear rack cause broken perforations? it makes no sens to me
     
  13. Pioneer

    Pioneer Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,715
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Location:
    Elko, Nevada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I could be wrong but I understood the cocking rack to be the little sprocket wheels that the film runs across just prior to rolling up onto the take up reel on the camera. I believe that the cocking rack, or sprocket wheel, runs the film counter, resets the double exposure prevention, stops your film advance when it reaches the next frame, and cocks the shutter if the camera has an automatic shutter cocking feaure. Some, like my little Super Regent, don't and you have to cock the shutter manually each time, but other cameras do, and I think your Retina does.

    If those sprocket wheels are hanging up as you advance the film to the next frame, the film perforations will drag across the sprocket teeth. If it gets bad enough it will begin to rip the perforations on the film edge. This may not be your problem as you say those sprocket wheels seem to run freely, but there is nothing else in the camera's film transport system that I know about that will rip through those perforated holes in the film.
     
  14. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    If the cocking rack is worn then it causes the whole film transport system to malfunction, it will cause the whole lot to stiffen and drag, although the rack itself is only there to cock the shutter it affects everything else in the film transport system, it was, when the camera was new and serviced regularly, considered a service part and changed as part of a standard service, and it was the only bad part of the design, it is a simple repair, as I Have said before, check out chris sherlock, he is the expert on Retina's, you can contact him though his website, but if the cocking rack starts to become worn then it effects the whole winding system, that is one reason that you must be very careful today winding the film with the lever wind retinas, it is even suggested that you do not let the lever just spring back, but let it back gently, after all, these cameras are 50plus years old, and take great pictures,and will reward the care taken of them,
     
  15. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    ahhh...I see---no the sprocked DRIVES the film wind, so what you end up with is FIRST the film starts to drag--this causes stress on the drive sprocket...this causes stress on the gearing--thus, the problem I have is a pre-cursor to gear failure, but it is not the gear failure causing my problem...it is my problem which causes later gear failure--at least that's how I see how it works--I'm no retina expert but I do know how things are connected.

    in orther words, a broken leg doesnt cause you to fall off a ladder...you fall off the ladder and break your leg
     
  16. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The problem is that these racks were made out of mild steel, the teeth on the rack wears down, as they wear down with the constant shutter cocking the whole lot stiffens, this drag is the first sign that the rack is worn, so with the design of the retina then I have found that as these racks start to fail then that sets up the drag problems, I too am no Retina expert but I have found that when you get this problem starting then with replacing the cocking rack normally solves the problem, so I suggest that you check the cocking rack for wear, I believe it is fairly simple, although I have never done one my self, I prefer to let a repairman do the work as I am both ham fisted and impatient, and have found when I try to repair a camera it costs me more when I make a meal of it, but looking at the Chris Sherlock site, were he gives full instructions for both checking and replacing the offending part, if you are capable of this sort of work then it is a fairly simple job, and with any winding problem such as you describe then the first place to look is the cocking rack,This is my experience owning and using retinas of a few years now,
    and it is possible for a broken leg to cause you to fall of a ladder, if you try and climb one with a broken leg, I new someone who tried it once, and he broke the other leg.
     
  17. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    ha, no, in that case the broken leg would be caused by carelessness, not by the broken leg

    well, when I shoot this roll out of the camera, what I'll do is a little test...I'll but some drag on the drive sprocket with my finger and see what happens--I believe I did this already and there was no superproportional drag on cocking--not like when the film is in there...but I'll verify again first...if it is as I suspect, then all I probably gotta do is shim or bend the pressure plate toungs that that engage the back but not the film--I suspect this is why the are there and years of spring compression has deformed them slightly, producing more pressure on the film than was originally designed/adjusted....more later..it's raining almost and I STILL am not done with weekend errands to keep me from this!!!!! not fair at all
     
  18. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Tried that trick 5 years ago when I first got into using a retina, all seemed well no particular drag, put a film in and it just got worse, got the cocking rack changed and all was fine, 99% of these winding problems are down to the cocking rack, and if you play around with the pressure plate then you can ruin a good camera, I still say check the rack first, that is 10 minutes work if you have the ability, and could save hours of frustration, trying this and that, I always say, after much experience with Retinas, if the winding has a problem check the cocking rack first, and even I will do that, all that is involved is taking the top plate off and the rack is there and if the teeth are worn then you know where the problem is, get one from Chris sherlock, follow his instructions and problem solved, if the rack is fine then try playing about with the pressure plate, but retinas are so well made and designed, apart from the cocking rack. their one weak link, that I doubt that it would be a problem, I have never come across that as a problem in 5 years and many retinas,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2012
  19. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    AHHHHH....my suspicions were correct:
    first verification it is the pressure plate: rewinding the film, with the sprocket and the takeuproller "freewheeling" had the same drag---excessive....
    second verification: when re-wind was over and I could hear the film disengage the sprocket and takeup, the drag stayed the same...and then lessened as the 1/2 sized film starter tongue started to go through.
    third verification: sprocket test with fingers...smooth winding unless I put SIGNIFICANT pressure--I mean EXCESSIVE on the sprocket.
    fourth verification--put tape on the pressure plate tongues...4 tiny 1/2 circles of tape....drag is now significantly reduced but still (i'd say) excessive...I just started a roll, so may re-wind that and put a thicker sized tape on the pressure plate tongues.

    so common sense worked in this case apparently.....of course as time goes on all things will wear and all gears will wear out, but I think if it was able to pull with the force that it was, the gears are pretty sound--and they will last a LOT LONGER now with the lower pressure plate forces on the film.

    I believe this is the problem you had that caused the gear to go--too much drag for too long wore out the gear--it's the only thing that makes any sense--a bad gear cannot cause rewind drag--no way in the world.
     
  20. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    UPDATE

    JUST put in another layer of tape "shim" on the tongue portion...S M O O T H

    it worked--now to see if there's any fine tuning--by shooting and checking focus....I'm pretty sure it's good though...man, now it spools just the single perf of the starting film tongue.
     
  21. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

    Messages:
    665
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I never had rewind drag, just winder drag, at sometime someone must have either removed the pressure plate or damaged it in some way, that is the only possibility of the pressure plate causing a problem, the cocking rack goes in every retina lever wind ever made, if the rack is working fine then sometime the camera has been serviced and the rack re placed and the camera looked after, the rack is such a bad design in retinas that it was routinely replaced every time the camera went for either service or repair, and certainly with Chris Sherlock, who is acknowledged as the man for retina service, if the camera goes to him for a simple cla he will inspect the rack and replace, 90% of the time they need replaceing, the one bad piece of design in an other wise great camera, for sure I had no problem with a pressure plate, the rack simply wears out, caused by bad design,
     
  22. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

    Messages:
    937
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    well--got the film back and it looks fine---the first roll that I "forced through" had some scratches on it--just the first frames--I've noticed that it seems to drag more at the beginning of the rolls of film for some reason (before I relieved the pressure plate)--like totally the opposite of what you'd expect.

    anyways the releiving of the pressure plate seems to have worked--still shooting with it and the pics look ok with the releived pressure plate. SO...I'm going to take that as a proof that my hypothesis is correct--the old camera's pressure plate is releived by the four protrusions--these are set at the factory many years ago. Over the years, with no film in the camera, creep sets in and the protrusions no longer provide the factory set pressure which then makes the pressure on the film too great--excessive drag. So either bending them (I believe from the way this is designed, that that is the funcion of these protrusions) or layering tape or other shim material to releivethe pressure works to "reset" the pressure plate force back to normal.