Rodinal in the cold

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Q.G., Oct 24, 2010.

  1. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    It's that time of year again that temperatures drop on the northern bit of the globe.
    Chilly out, but not cold enough yet to put the heating on.

    I'm about to try stand development in Rodinal. But am not planning to keep checking and running back and forth refreshing a warm water bath to keep the temperature up for the duration. Room temperature will be about 14 degrees C.

    So how low, temperaturewise, can you go with Rodinal? Are there figures about that anywhere?
     
  2. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Steel tank? Stick it on top of your computer case if youve got a desktop.

    That's what I do with my bottles of fermenting sugar, let the bottles touch the side of the case, keeps them warmish in Melbourne weather. They're plastic and it works very well, but they're thin plastic, not sure how it'd be for a thick plastic dev tank.
     
  3. mablo

    mablo Member

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    There's a german guy who has experimented with Rodinal in cold temperatures, I just cannot find his website at the moment. Basically his findings are positive as far as I can remember. Compared to 20C you calculate your time x 1.3 for two degrees and x 1.6 for four degrees lower temperature. This is for a normal agitation method.

    For stand development I think 14C is all right. I would whirl the tank every 30min though.
     
  4. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    Plastic tanks. Maybe that still helps though.
    My laptop computer is a regular toasting oven (a few years ago, a dermatologist from our local hospital published a paper about how the long forgotten phenomenon of erythema ab igne, a.k.a. toasted skin syndrome, - not uncommon when people still had to sit close to fires and stoves to keep them warm in winter - had made an unexpected return thanks to laptop computers), so maybe if i turn it upside down and put the tank on it?
    Thanks for the suggestion.
    :wink:

    14 C would be o.k.?
    I understand the idea is to exhaust the developer, leaving oxidated developer (and what not) in the emulsion to shield against overdevelopment? If so, perhaps i should just let it sit for an hour extra (was planning to have it - HP5+ - sit for 1 hour in 1:50 diluted Rodinal).
     
  5. neelin

    neelin Member

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    Rodinal is a single developing agent p-aminophenol

    This is my collection of developing agent temperature coefficients so far:

    Ratio of increase in development time that occurs when the temp. is increased 10C.

    Temperature coefficient = T1/T2

    When the developer contains two developing agents, the coefficient is useful over a limited range.

    (Basic photographic materials and processes-Stroebel, Current, Zakia)
    1.3 Metol
    1.9 Pyrogallol
    2.5 Hydroquinone
    1.9 MQ

    Mees & James

    2.6 p-aminophenol

    Multi developer coefficient's (i.e. MQ) work only over a range of temps. I don't have the limits, sorry.
     
  6. mono

    mono Subscriber

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    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2010
  7. mablo

    mablo Member

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    Mono, thanks, that is the one I was after. I tried Rodinal 1+50 once in 16C and was quite happy with the results but the negative side of things is that the development time grows to 20min range. One example is here: http://is.gd/ewgK3 .
    I haven't tested with 1+25 dilution but I might do that some day.

    For stand development in Rodinal 1+100 I still think 14C is doable. The developer will be exhausted which is the main idea, but it just takes some more time. What's really important here is that the outside temperature is about the same with the temperature in the tank so the liquid doesn't move and create uneven skies or stripes so typical for the stand development.
     
  8. RobertV

    RobertV Restricted Access

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    Rodinal will produce less grain with a lower temperature. But high diluted Rodinal > 40-50 minutes is comming to an end.
    When going under 15-16 degrees C the developing time in the higher dilutions will be in theory over 1h. So it won't work anymore. Apart from the problem of the rest of your process, fixing on those low temperatures will be also very slow.
    A good optimum temperature for Rodinal is around 18C-20C.
     
  9. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    Sounds promising!
    Why, not having the heating on could turn out to be positively advantages.

    The developer will be cold, because the ambient temperature will be that too. So i don't expect any warming up through the tank wall and resulting convection currents in the tank.

    Good point about the fixer, though. I'll get that up to 'normal' temperature, and give it a bit longer to work.



    Robert,

    If Rodinal is exhausted in 40 - 50 minutes, lower temperatures leading to slower action, why would Rodinal then still be exhausted in 40 - 50 minutes?


    I'll try 1:50 for well over an hour, perhaps 2 full hours.
    Thanks all!
     
  10. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    I haven't found it to be exhausted in 40-50 minutes (20c), I've done 1+100 2 hour semi-stand for a very large push on Tri-X, the same results not achievable in 1 hour.
     
  11. RobertV

    RobertV Restricted Access

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    Maybe..... I did 1+150 in testing Tech Pan films and you will find no difference (densitometer) 1 h or 2 h semi-stand. But a higher dilution is quicker oxydized. 1+100 is then maybe on the edge. So 1+50 will then certainly work till two hours.
    But on lower temperatures the process of oxydizing is also ran slower.
     
  12. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    The difference for my Tri-X results between 1h and 2h was tremendous.

    I'll put some 1+50, 1+100 and 1+200 rodinal in open air beakers tomorrow and do a timelapse video with my digital SLR, see how long it takes to oxidise.

    Imo, it should be the film thats doing the majority of the oxidation, especially in stand or semi-stand.
     
  13. piu58

    piu58 Member

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    That's me.

    Please look at
    my web page (in German), and the Rodinal article. Both are in German.
     
  14. Kevin Kehler

    Kevin Kehler Member

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    Strange idea, what if you started off at 24 degrees and let cool to 14 degrees? Pick a different starting temperature if necessary but you should have some serious developing action to begin and the cooling will not be as significant since while you end up at the same place, you just allow more action to begin with. 24 might be high, start with 22 or 23.
     
  15. RobertV

    RobertV Restricted Access

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    Uwe, hast du mal einen Rodinal Test gemacht wie die Aktivität runter geht nach zirka 50 Minuten in einen Hochverdünnung?

    Beste Grüsse,

    Robert
     
  16. A49

    A49 Member

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    If you adjust the temperature adequately then your cold temperatures are no problem. Eder´s "Rezepte und Tabellen" (German book) says the original Rodinal´s temperature coefficient is 2. That means that if you lower the temperature by 10 degrees Celsius then you have to develop twice as long. To use your normal dilution and multiplicate by about 1.6 could be a good starting point for 14 C.

    I developed in Rodinal at different temperatures, also at 14 C and everything was fine at every temperature. Unfortunately I don´t remember the time and dilution I took at 14 C. In contradiction to other opinions I found no optimum or especially good temperatur between 14 C and 20 C. Maybe somewhere over 20 C Rodinal becomes worse in grain, but I never tested that.

    Best,
    Andreas
     
  17. piu58

    piu58 Member

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    Lieber Robert, ich arbeite nicht mit Hochverdünnung. Aber man muss beachten, dass niedrige Temperaturen auch die Oxidation verlangsamen. Nach 20 Minuten bei 16° und 1+50 ist noch Aktivität da, aber bei weitem nicht mehr die volle.
     
  18. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    That way you introduce a variable that is hard to control: the rate of cooling.
    That's why i want to work at whatever the thermometer says (currently 14 C).
    The alternative would be trying to keep the temperature up for an hour or so. Not having a heated, controlled water bath, i'd rather not.

    It would appear that 14 C is not a problem, perhaps even a boon. So i'll go with that.

    I will warm up the fixer though. Shouldn't be a problem, since that doesn't need to be kept at temperature for that long.
     
  19. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    Hello Uwe,

    I read your article (thanks, Folker!) and it removed all my worries. Thanks!
     
  20. Aron

    Aron Subscriber

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    A few times I developed Fomapan 100 using Rodinal in my fridge, which I keep at 6 °C. The negs came out fine (I checked them now, for the sake of this post), with good density. The grain didn't become noticably much smaller, this is why I abandoned the idea, which was actually rather good, since there was no need to worry about controlling the temperature of the developing tank with the help of a water bath. I calculated the development time using an approximated thermal coefficient. Thanks Neelin for giving us the exact figure.

    According to my notes, I used Rodinal at 1+25 and agitated normally.

    Have fun with it!
     
  21. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

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    Sorry to dig this up, but what is the lowest temperature Rodinal is effective at?

    I was thinking of doing some wacky stand development with high dilutions in the fridge for a few hours or a day. Tell me would this work? and do you think it would have the benefit of reducing the grain size?

    I would love the convenience that I could toss it into the fridge, go to work, come back and its all done! haha or maybe I'm dreaming. Or maybe its the lack of sleep thats making me think these crazy things.
     
  22. IloveTLRs

    IloveTLRs Member

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    I'm too lazy to use a warm water bath, so I've been developing (with tap water) at around 6°c -> Pan F+ 50 in R09, 1+50 at the regular time of 12 minutes (I think that's the time listed on the bottle.) I had no trouble at all, and the negatives were as nice as always.