Rollei films: Ortho 25 vs ATO 2.1 25

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by michael_r, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Hello.

    Anybody know what the differences are between these two Rollei films? They are both orthochromatic and super fine grain. So what is different besides ATO 2.1 having a fancier name ("Advanced Technical Orthographic")? The only thing I can find different in anything I see on the web is that ATO is described as "pure lith". But I've never quite understood specifically what that means. I take it to mean ATO 2.1 is higher contrast than Ortho 25, but what else if anything? I also thought lith films were inherently very grainy, but ATO 2.1 has the same "extremely fine grain" description as Ortho 25.
     
  2. WRSchmalfuss

    WRSchmalfuss Member

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    ROLLEI Ortho vs ROLLEI ATO2.1

    Rollei Ortho 25 is available for more than 20 years. As 35mm and 120 roll film coated on a glass-clear 100 micron synthetic film base. The gradation is that of a typical panchromatic film of comparable sensitivity. Perhaps a bit harder when it is processed in an typical fine-grain developer. Ideal is to use a gradation bending developer, as offered by ROLLEI. Name: ROLLEI RLC = Low contrast. They described the film also as a genre in the graphical application as "line film".
    The ROLLEI ATO2.1 is also available for more than 20 years, the former name was MACO GF = Genius Film. He was however, only as cutted sheet film available. For several years now, the ROLLEI ATO2.1 is also available as 35mm and 120 roll film. To my knowledge, such a thing has never happened before. Real lith film packed for photographers in cartridges and as 120 roll film. as 135, 120 and as cutted sheet film, coated on a glass-clear 100 micron synthetic film base. The gradation is that of a typical lith film is much steeper than of the ROLLEI Ortho 25 film. They called this type of film in the graphic usage as "lith film". Normally these are used as reproduction lith film for drawings and lettering. Then working with a document developer, such as the ROLLEI RHC = High Contrast = dilution 1:4, 5 minutes. Who would like to use this film for pictorial photography, for example, should use the ROLLEI RLC developer for gradation bending. In a German forum there is an interesting ROLLEI ATO2.1 thread. Link: http://www.aphog.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=16586
     
  3. walter ivenz

    walter ivenz Member

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    Hello,
    The Rollei Ortho 25 is available on 135 and 120 since more than 20years!
    Now coated on a claer 100 micron sythetic filmbase.
    Also a cutted sheet film coated also on a claer filmbast 175 micron.
    The gradation is what you are expected from a typicale panchromatic film with compareable sensitive.
    A little harder when he ist developed with a fine-grain compansation developer.
    Perfect for developing the Rollei Orth25 is the usage of a developer
    like the Rollei Low-Contrast (RLC) because of his possibility for
    tameing the gradation.
    These sort of films like the Rollei Ortho25 are called in the graphic business as "line-films".

    Rollei ATO 2.1. is also available since 20 years.
    Former under the Label: MACO GF. (Genius Film).
    In the past the ATO 2.1. was only as cutted sheet-film in stock.
    Since serveral years the ATO 2.1. is also still available as 135 and 120s.
    As I know in the past there was no offer like that:

    A true lithfilm sorted for photographs in cartridges and rollfilms.
    As 135;120s and as cutted sheet film an a clear 100 micron filmbase.
    The gradation-curve is what you are awaitung from a typical lithfilm but she is much steeper
    in compansation with the ORTHO 25.
    "Lith-Film" as people from the graphic business are calling these type of film.
    Normaly "lith-films" are in use for reproduction of drawings or
    writings. Therefore a Document-developer like the Rollei RHC
    is suitable. Hig-Contrast_ Dil. 1 and 4 , for 5 minutes.
    If you want to use the Rollei ATO 2.1. for picture-photography
    it is recommandet to use the Rollei RLC-Developer because he is bending the gradation-curve.
    Also Informations about these two films ,you will find in the german
    "APHOG"-Forum.
    http://www.aphog.de

    Nice greetings
    Walter
     
  4. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Thank you very much for the response.

    Does ATO 2.1 have grain as fine as Ortho 25?

    Michael
     
  5. Rolleijoe

    Rolleijoe Member

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    The ATO is Rollei's version (better too, BTW) for the now defunct Kodak Technical Pan, and came out only 2 years ago (not 20).
    Rollei Ortho 25 is a finer grained film than Rollei 25 (meant to replace the APX 25). You won't need as much light as you'll think you will, and the results will amaze you.

    In fact, it's what's in my 35 now, with the Rollei 400s in one of the 120s. The Rolleiortho 25 is a true "fine art" film, and won't disappoint.
     
  6. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Are you thinking of ATP rather than ATO? ATO is an orthochromatic film. But since it's described as "lith", I'm wondering if it is as fine grained as regular Rollei Ortho 25. What I'm hoping is that the only difference is that ATO has higher contrast than Ortho 25.
     
  7. Rolleijoe

    Rolleijoe Member

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    Yes, you're right. My mistake. I have some 4x5 ATO bur haven't shot it yet. My guess would be it would have indeed have more contrast than Rollei Ortho 25.
     
  8. walter ivenz

    walter ivenz Member

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    Hello everyone,
    here some further informations about these 2 films, which might be usefull for you to know:
    The grain of each of the two emulsions are very fine.
    BUT it depends on the filmdeveloper you use for this 2 types!
    The Filmdeveloper Rollei-RLC works very finer then the Documentdeveloper
    Rollei RHC.
    Hope the infos are usefull for You !
    Walter
     
  9. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Thanks. Well I ordered some Ortho 25 and ATO, and will try them both. I guess that's the best way to find out how they work.
     
  10. Film-Niko

    Film-Niko Member

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    Michael,

    what is your main intention?
    Do you need an orthochromatic emulsion?
    Or do you want a very fine grained, sharp and high resolving film?

    Rollei Ortho 25 and ATO are both fine grained and very sharp.
    But Agfa Copex Rapid and Rollei ATP have both finer grain, better edge sharpness and much higher resolution. And much better tonality.

    Speed for Ortho 25 in RLC developer is about ISO 16.
    But the shape of the chacteristic curve is a problem, because it's a strong s-shape curve.
    Same with ATO in this developer. This film has one stop less speed and has even more contrast.

    If orthochromatic sensitisation is not so important, and if you can live with a normal panchromatic film, then I highly recommend Agfa Copex Rapid in combination with the dedicated SPUR Modular UR New developer (with Part A1 and B).
    With this combination you get
    - real ISO 40
    - ideal characteristic curve with excellent shadow detail and highlight tone separation
    - wonderful tonality
    - very fine grain: 16x20" prints from 35mm film are no problem at all
    - prints from 35mm Agfa Copex Rapid surpass APX 100, Plus-X, Fomapan 100 and FP4+ in 120 4,5x6 and 6x6; you get medium format quality with 35mm film
    - outstanding resolution
    - excellent sharpness.

    Important is the Spur developer. This film doesn't work good with Pota and similar developers.
     
  11. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Thanks for the reply. It is for some contrast masking experiments, so ortho is ideal so I can work under a dim red safelight. Also since this is for a specifc type of mask, a short, high contrast curve is what I'm looking for. So I basically wanted the finest grained, highest contrast ortho film. It seems like ATO will be the right one, but I decided to order some Ortho 25 as well.
     
  12. himself

    himself Member

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    I don't have anything to add, I'd just like to know where you get these films?
     
  13. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I ordered them from Freestyle.
     
  14. himself

    himself Member

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    Oh, so I suppose postage to the UK would be a lot then, nevermind... back to google
     
  15. ath

    ath Member

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    Try macodirect.
     
  16. himself

    himself Member

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    I already did and the price is a bit high + postage to the UK is, well, you know.

    found a place in the UK that's about the same price
    "firstcall-photographic" if anyone's interested
     
  17. Rhodes

    Rhodes Member

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  18. Henning Serger

    Henning Serger Member

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    No, all three films are completely different animals.

    Agfa Copex Rapid: Microfilm from Agfa-Gevaert, current production. Panchromatic film. Clear base.
    ISO 32 - 40 with the dedicated Spur Modular UR New developer (part A1 + part B).
    Best high resolution film developer combination I have ever used (and I am using these films since 1985, started with Kodak Tech Pan). Excellent tonality and detail rendition.
    My prints from 35mm Agfa Copex Rapid / Spur Modular UR New are surpassing my 6x6 medium format FP4+, RPX 100 and APX 100 prints.

    Rollei ATP: Technical Pan film from Agfa-Gevaert, current production. Superpanchromatic film. Blue-grey base.
    Recommended developer ATP DC A/B (new, improved stuff).

    Rollei ATO: Lith film, orthochromatic (former sold as Maco Genius film). Made by Fotokemika.

    These films have all their own character and look.

    Best regards,
    Henning
     
  19. Rhodes

    Rhodes Member

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  20. piu58

    piu58 Member

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    Dear Henning,

    could you give a recommendation for using ATO 2.1 for use with normal tonality? Can I use SPUR developer for that film? Thank you in advance.
     
  21. Henning Serger

    Henning Serger Member

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    Hello Uwe,

    that's difficult. I guess with 'normal tonality' you refer to a linear characteristic curve.
    I have not got that with the developers I have used so far. The characteristic curve obtained had a strong S-form. Excellent tone separation in the mid tones, but lack of detail in shadows and highlights.
    You know Juttas pictures. I think this look, this character is quite typical for the film. Similar to Ortho 25 (but not identical), and completely different to ATP, CMS 20 or Copex Rapid in their dedicated developers.

    I am not an expert for ATO 2.1, my experience with this film is limited. Shot some rolls out of curiosity.

    I have not used the new Spur developer for that film.
    Therefore I can't give you advice from own experience in this case.
    But with Spur Modular UR New you have in general an additional possibility to change contrast and influence the characteristic curve by changing the dilution: Less part B results in higher, more Part B in relationsship to Part A1 results in lower contrast.
    So I think it's worth a try.

    Best regards,
    Henning