sales details for Leica RF

Discussion in 'Rangefinder Forum' started by David Lyga, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    Would anyone care (or, indeed, be able to) venture a guess as to how many brand new Leica MP bodies are sold, worldwide, in one day?

    With absolutely no right to venture a guess (certainly not an intelligent one), I would probably say about half a dozen, no more. - David Lyga
     
  2. Andrew K

    Andrew K Subscriber

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    I would guess 2 - a week

    And I would be surpries if 1 of the 2 were actually used......
     
  3. Kevin Caulfield

    Kevin Caulfield Subscriber

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    I'm sure I've seen this figure, or something very similar, on APUG quite recently. I was thinking it was at least 5 or 10 per day.
     
  4. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    Thank is quite remarkable, in that we all basically agree here. I cannot imagine more than six per day being sold, and the manufacture being really an intimate 'craft', each body 'known' to the respective factory worker. At USD 5000+ per body, there even might be some profit. - David Lyga
     
  5. noacronym

    noacronym Member

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    Nothing is that good.
     
  6. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    naocronym: I think that you just might be correct. One can wax about bokeh or unduly esoteric 'isms' about Leica lenses but, in the end, Japan is not too deficient when it comes down to making an inexpensive 'standard' lens in order to counteract this German threat. What is worth 5000 plus another 5000 for the glass? $10K is a lot of money for just a camera. - David Lyga
     
  7. 250swb

    250swb Member

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    Naturally sales will have declined from when it was introduced. But on the other hand I would imagine sales are higher now than they were four or five years ago after a lot of Leica users went over to the M8 then M9. The mild resurgence of interest in film, it becoming a cult in itself, has meant that Leica sales for the MP will have risen again in recent years, along with other new film cameras, such as Holga's and Lomo's. Both high and low ends of the market are served for new film camera's by niche suppliers, so whatever sales there are will be reasonably strong pro rata.

    You still have the dedicated amateur buying the MP, perhaps as something he has always promised himself, or just his next camera. Then you have the MP's bought because one has been seen on the shoulder of a Hollywood star, possibly just as a fashion accessory, but I'm sure some are used. And then you have the emerging markets, whether an MP is bought by a Russian oligarch or a Chinese industrialist there is an even bigger trickle down to the new middle classes.

    So selling 2 or 3 isn't a very realistic figure for even a 'I hate Leica' person to guess at, but possibly more like wishful thinking. I would have put it in the 50's, or 60's, maybe many more, worldwide, week in week out, not accounting for Christmas. After all, and who'd have thought it, makers of high end, hand made Swiss watches are having their best years ever right now, after those panic stories about markets being flooded with cheap imports and people not needing them because they have a mobile phone.

    Don't underestimate Leica because you can't imagine how many MP's they sell, you might do better by imagining the unimaginable and you'd be much closer.

    Steve
     
  8. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

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    If they only sold six a day Worldwide, they wouldn't still be in business.
     
  9. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Leica Camera are just building two new plants. I'm sure not for their film cameras.
     
  10. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Production rate for the M7 in 2009:

    5-7.5 cameras a day

    Source: Leica Camera
     
  11. 250swb

    250swb Member

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    The MP is a much higher seller than the M7, so call it 12 per day to be on the conservative side. 2009 was when the M9 was introduced, the lowest ebb for film camera sales, so thats 60 they are building and selling per week when things looked bad for film camera production. Pure conjecture of course.

    Steve
     
  12. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    OK, I have been exonerated by both AgX and 250swb: their figures corroborate mine to a large extent. Looks like I might have been more correct than wrong. But...then benjiboy had to muddy the waters by his all too rational approach with (paraphrased) 'Leica not being able to stay in business selling only six per week' stuff.

    Problem is, he makes sense: How DOES Leica stay in business selling so few bodies? - David Lyga
     
  13. AgX

    AgX Member

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    David, have a look at their sales program.
     
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  15. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    I have no idea what you are talking about, AgX. Is this published data? - David Lyga
     
  16. Andrey

    Andrey Member

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    150 million net sales for the camera division. I heard the number in some tube video about leica S research and development.

    If we assume that an average "item" is 5 grand, be it a lens or a body, then
    150 000 000/5000/365=80 units per day

    If an average item is 10 grand, 40 units a day.
     
  17. AgX

    AgX Member

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    David with "sales program" I just meant this

    http://de.leica-camera.com/photography/

    Their range of cameras. Including those digital ones! They also make "sports"-optics.
    As I said above they are building two new, larger plants to move to.
    I got the number of 1/4 billion revenue in 2011.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2013
  18. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    OK, AgX, et al. It all adds up, I guess.

    But I am still trying to understand how sex appeal can warrant USD 10,000 for a camera and lens. It's well made but it still can hit the pavement. And, I also wonder, is the Leica Passport passé? - David Lyga
     
  19. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

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    David if only people who actuall needed top of the range $10,000 professional cameras in general not just Leica bought then the volume of sales would be so small it wouldn't be worth the while of the manufacturers to produce them, and like many expensive articles they are aspirational, become fashion accessories and status symbols for people with the disposeable income to indulge their tastes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2013
  20. 250swb

    250swb Member

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    Everybody buys things they don't need, but when Leica is mentioned it's conflated with snobbery or status. Thats nature of life, people, and a lack of insight. For instance why don't they buy some cheaper shoes, buy a cheaper car, eat a burger not a lobster, downsize their house? They don't because it never occurs to them, criticism starts at somebody elses front door.

    I, and many other people are happy and proud and boasting that they bought a car that isn't the base model. But the padded luxury and go faster stripes are devaluing as you drive away from the lot. I have Leica lenses that are worth more than I paid for them. My Leica MP, which I bought in 2003 has been productive and well used for ten years, but if I sold it now I'd get more than I paid for it. Compare that with the other photographic equipment we all buy and take a massive hit on. Of course the type of photography makes a difference between buying a quick to devalue DSLR or a Leica MP. You aren't going to be doing bird photography with an MP. But to say Leica equipment is expensive is kind of missing the point by a country mile. It holds its value better than nearly all other photographic equipment, in some cases it goes up in value, and in the long term you know that what you bought five, ten, twenty, thirty, or more years ago can still be used now (and into the future) alongside current products. A 1950's 50mm Elmar can still be used on a modern MP or M9 without adapters. How does that fit with Nikon or Canon and the amount they make you pay in new equipment to remain 'upgraded'. But I can appreciate the alternative point of view from people who see photography as a short term dalliance, it doesn't pay to spend too much.

    Steve
     
  21. Xmas

    Xmas Member

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    Hi

    The op was about the MP volume not Leica total volume.

    Leica acknowledged that the MP was a model that they did to keep (sic diehard) people happy, they based it on extant production items the M7 (e.g. the MP uses the M7 chassis, and did it to high standards of finish and top plate text... They did not expect it to sell in any real volume so priced it as a lower volume flagship.

    They were surprised when it then outsold the M7 at least initially, but the customer is always right so they have kept on making them, and the custom accessories like the faster rewinder...

    Which last is also a useful option if you have a M2 or M3... If you have a M6 already Id stick with it, rather then upgrade, they both have the same sensor pixel count and ISO after all

    Noel
     
  22. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    OK, the reason I stated 'MP' was for exactly that reason, Xmas: the ultimate camera for purists (like me), but with considerably more disposable income than, again, me.

    I will admit that there is something magical about the mechanics which derive power from, essentially, nineteenth century technology, a clock spring, and freedom from battery power (except meter) is comforting to some. But, to 250swb and others: there really are very affluent people who would more than hesitate before buying an MP because, truly, no better pictures are delivered there as opposed to, let's face it squarely, from a K1000 or SRT. Such people seek value in life and, to be truthful, that is how I was brought up, judging value before sexiness.

    In other words, not all people with money use that money for the misguided purpose of enhancing an ephemeral social status. - David Lyga
     
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  23. Dali

    Dali Subscriber

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    Very true David, and speaking for myself, I would avoid buying any object having a social status, being a camera or a car. You are what you are, not what you buy unless you are moronic enough to believe it. :D
     
  24. David Lyga

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    Dali and all: In the seventies, when I was living in NYC, my mother and father came down from Connecticut to visit me. My mother, who was brought up to be entirely sensible and rational, HAD to buy something from Gucci (who she was convinced had the ultimate quality). She bought a dress but was treated rudely, she said. She tried to justify this purchase as to the 'superior' stitching but, after a while, the aura wore off and her premonitions were defeated. She realized that Gucci existed solely for people like herself, upper middle class but not rich, who wanted to ape the super rich with their 'more intelligent' purchases. She talked to many rich people who directed her in the correct direction because THEY THEMSELVES would not buy Gucci. My mother's final denouement came when she came, again, to NYC and had her hair done at Vidal Sassoon. Of course, VIdal, himself, was 'not there' but an assistant did it. It was a hilarious haircut and one that she recovered from only by never again venturing into venues where she had no reason to be.

    Now, moderators of apug might not like this negative plug and, surely, I am not denigrating ONLY those two boutiques, but I am saying that what appears in life to be 'real' is often supported by a proscenium that presents itself, outwardly, as promising more than it delivers. That is the only way I have been able to survive in life as I have never made any money. But I have followed other forms of wealth, like rational thought. - David Lyga
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2013
  25. benjiboy

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    Completely off topic, and let me apologise in advance but I read this week that Vidal Sassoon and Gore Vidal were both staying at the same health spa a few years ago somewhere in the U.S., and one of the staff got the names confused and Vidal was given an enema that should have been given to Sassoon :D
     
  26. Andrey

    Andrey Member

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    So you should be happy you're smarter than the leica owners and much less misguided. Be happy with a pentax behind a takumar.

    But it doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist or isn't worth the money to somebody else. Two subjective realities.