screw hole repair/handle 2D -Ideas/solutions needed

Discussion in 'Camera Building, Repairs & Modification' started by bshaffer, Aug 19, 2006.

  1. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    I need to repair the stripped holes for the handle on my 8x10 2 D-- the need for clearance for the bellows is apparent. epoxy repair may be ok and then redrilling for the screws for the leather handle,but not sure how secure. I know not to pick up the camera solely by the handle -but wonder what other techniques might work -ie: small hex head on the bellows side with nut on the handle side? not an authentic look but ....
    . actually someone had tried to repair w/ brass screws from the top and bending the tail portion to keep it from pulling thru but it left a sharp edge towards the bellows -that I'm not comfortable with. I've used epoxy wood repair for yrs on restoration projects but think it will eventually fail -just looking for other ideas --thanks barry
     
  2. David H. Bebbington

    David H. Bebbington Inactive

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    Devotees of crudity such as myself would simply superglue shavings from a matchstick (or piece of hardwood) into any hole which is too large, allow these to dry and replace the original screws!

    Regards,

    David
     
  3. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    david ,
    A good thought --- I use that for my woodturnings -CA glue has saved my bacon numerous times -that might be a good solution .. but it is original finish and CA plays havoc on finishes . I was thinking a metal shim or ? to provide more of a resistance to tear out potential --(that standard or frame is 6mm thick)-maybe the shavings /CA would suffice . lets see what the brain trust here comes up with . I thank you for your reply -and it's great to know that CA works on all continents . :smile:
    barry
     
  4. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    David,
    I should add a little more expalnation re: "plays havoc on finishes" -I use an accelerator spray to the CA glue and in hind sight -that is what is more detrimental to the finish . a light use of CA and it might be a go --but it's hard for me to control CA -it just wants to spread . thats why I spray it -to stop it's spread . any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated -wishing you a grand weekend
    barry
     
  5. bdial

    bdial Subscriber

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    Is there sufficient clearance on the inside for a small hex nut? I'd think a machine screw and nut would be preferable for security, than a wood screw and epoxy, or CA, since the interior of the existing hole doesn't leave much for the glue to bond to. Seems like even though the shavings fill the space, you are still depending on the glue to hold everything to the camera body. In other applications, I agree that CA and wood-dust is great for turnings, and I have used the matchstick method many times as well. But for something that must resist a pulling load, I'm not so sure.
     
  6. Greg_E

    Greg_E Member

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    Use the thicker gap filling CA gel!

    It will be hard to beat a good wood glue and hardwood packed into the hole, then put the screw back in and let the glue harden. If the screw was clean, it will provide addition holding power because the glue will hold onto the screw. Just don't pack too much wood or you may cause it to split when you put the screw back in.

    You could drill it out, and insert a hardwood dowel with glue. When the glue is hard, drill for the screw and go.

    Drill it out and put in a "T" nut from the back side, then use machine screws to screw it together. If you did this for all the fasteners on that side it could look completely normal.

    And lastly, machine the whole assembly out of some kind of metal and forget about it being wood. Drill and tap where needed. Alternate would be the machine a large metal plate that attaches the the wood.

    All in all, if the T nuts will fit, it gives a replaceable solution. Strip the fastener, just replace the T nut and screw. Check http://www.microfasteners.com for screws and T nuts, if not there then http://www.smallparts.com or Mcmaster Carr might have them in the size you need. You could also machine the T nuts with a lathe and metal stock and drill and tap.
     
  7. Greg_E

    Greg_E Member

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  8. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    greetings bdial,
    it looks like a mm or so for clearance as the bellows folds shut -I may be able to use a small hex nut and dremel it almost flush and CA glue the hex head to the screw . good thought .I also thought about grinding a machine screw head as thin as possible and mounting the nut on the tang for the leather strap. thanks for your thoughts .
    I'm sure that most that have a 8x10 2d don't rely on the leather handle -for more than stabilization -- not for total lifting .
    thanks barry
     
  9. Jim Jones

    Jim Jones Subscriber

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    The split rivits that hold the handle on my 8x10 2D are still good. If I ever have to replace them, it might be easiest to use T-nuts as Greg suggests, and epoxy them in place. Rather than use eight tiny T-nuts to replace the eight split rivits, I might form a strap holder out of strip brass and use only one T-nut and screw in each end of each holder. Most hardware stores should have a variety of strip brass and T-nuts. A more elegant solution would be to drill and tap four holes in each of two plates that match the holes in the strap holders. This is the least invasive fix, and except for screw heads instead of rivit heads, would look almost authentic.

    Until researching this I never noticed those tiny split rivits. It was a cheap and easy way to make the 2D. I'll have to look over a Deardorff at the next opportunity to see how it should be done.
     
  10. waynecrider

    waynecrider Member

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    What about tooth picks and carpenters glue.
     
  11. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    You might also remove the bellows and bring countersunk machine screws up from below...brass self locking acorn nuts above should finish the job.
     
  12. Dave Parker

    Dave Parker Inactive

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    I carry my 2D 8x10 by the handle all the time and have not had any problems, of course I have the original brass strap holders and had to make a new handle for it, by the way the orginal strap loops were not screwed in, they were rivets that had something like six legs on the inside that are compressed againt the inside part of the wood on top.

    Once I made a new handle for it in the same shape as the orginal out of leather, I wet the leather then squeezed it into place has worked out quite well, with no hint of weakness.

    Dave
     
  13. RichSBV

    RichSBV Member

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    I have yet to find replacements for those split rivets, but I have repaired a couple of cameras that used them.

    I used #1 brass pan head machine screws on one that had nice tight holes. A flat washer and nut on the inside held with Loctite. The second had enlarged holes, so I used #2 screws. The screws were trimed to the bottom of the nut.

    Take another look at your clearance. One millimeter seems awfully tight? And there's more and more room as the bellows collapses since it's larger in the rear than the front. There should only be a possible problem with the bellows fully extended, but then it gets narrower with extension. I had no clearance problems on mine.

    If you can find T-nuts in that small of a size, it would certainly be a nice solution. I wouldn't recommend doing anything that would remove wood as there's very little of it up there to begin with...
     
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  15. John Bartley

    John Bartley Member

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    My vote would be to drill the stripped holes big enough to take a hardwood plug, glue in the hardwood plug, drill pilot holes small enough that the new screws will be very snug and then screw the handle back on.

    This is how I put my 8x10 Agfa back together after it (literally) fell apart and it's now bulletproof.

    cheers
     
  16. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    What about reversing the bolts? A small dome head machine screw through from the camera inside should still leave enough clearance for the bellows; then cut the outside to length and finish with a dome nut.

    As I am not familiar with the camera -- I've not handled one in 25 years or so -- there may be a fundamental flaw in this suggestion, but I thought it worth mentioning.

    Cheers,

    Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
     
  17. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    Greg,Jim and Wayne
    thanks for the ideas -I keep looking for an excuse to buy a metal lathe '-)
    I'll relook at the project this morn and see how tough it would be to accurately place a T or blind nut -the screw holes have been "hogged" out by past attempts at repair-and I need to refill those voids ..so everyones advice will come in handy and I like Jim's idea of thin brass stock as a reinforcer strip -
    have a good day and thanks again
    barry
     
  18. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    dear roger,
    hope this isn't a duplicate post -my cable connection just failed to locate the server-don't you just hate that!
    my return post to you said thanks -that you suggestion would work very well and it was one of my first considerations. I'm thinking about how much I want this to look like original equipment as some one before me, has done a very nice job in restoring this -sans the handle. brass screws were the orig equip -but I think dome nuts would look fine also . thanks
    have a good day
    barry
     
  19. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Barry,

    You're welcome. My criterion on these matters is partly 'what is original?' but also 'what would the manufacturer think of this modification?' If it's in the spirit, and probably wasn't used to save money or because the manufacturer wouldn't have expected his camera to last that long, then I have little compunction.

    Of course I'd them spend ages trying to source, make or strip brass dome muts, probably with a 'temporary' (10-30 year) butt-ugly plain nut in place until I succeeded...

    Oh well, using 'em is more important than making 'em look pretty -- hence the hand-filed brass lug on the cocking lever of the Compur shutter of the first-series 38/4.5 Zeiss Biogon on my Alpa 12 WA...

    Oh; and you post wasn't repeated.

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  20. Greg_E

    Greg_E Member

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    Micro Fasteners has some brass rivets that might work. They also have some really tiny rivets (1/32 shaft diameter), but those are only listed in the printed catalog.

    The T nuts with a nice brass screw would probably be closest to the factory brass rivets, while still being serviceable.
     
  21. Colin Graham

    Colin Graham Member

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    Sorry if someone's mentioned this but how about some threaded inserts- they're big enough that predilling for them would probably remove all bad wood and then you could use machine screws. Most decent hardware stores have them in brass and zinc plate. Sort of like t-nuts but you can install them from the face side without removing the bellows (just don't drill into the bellows! :smile:)
     
  22. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Have we asked WHY the screws gave way ? Stripped ? Why ?

    The cause for many 'screw fatalities' is brass polish. Brasso is an express villain.

    Many cameras have had liquid penetrate screw holes. The resulting rot loses its grip, and the handle pulls right out. Oops. But the finish is still nice !

    To fix THAT problem, you can use runny, slow curing epoxy to fill in the wood fibre, then re-do the screws, or cut away the damaged wood and set the screws into a 'putty' of epoxy thickened with micro-balloons ( think: fried air ).

    OR, for the handle, drill through holes in the place of screw holes, and fix a mending plate to the inside of the camera body, and use machine screws to fasten the handle.

    Moral: always be suspicious of old cameras with shiny brightwork.

    EDIT: Yes, the 2D originally had rivets. If THEY are replaced by screws,
    try to figure out why. And check for other damage.

    .
     
  23. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    wow I'm overwhelmed with your gracious advice everyone -thanks
    to bring things up to date -yes the original attachment was a rivet like device -like a cotter pin that had the legs splayed out -for retention -dave df and greg were correct -I had an old 5x7 2d and looked at it - I would now guess that when the 8x10 was refinished that someone pried the "rivets " loose and enlarged and tore the original holes -then used longer brass screws and bent the tip at an angle for increased retention. when they reapplied the handle.
    to date -I've epoxied the holes with sawdust included and will retap later --I like the cotter pin like design and will see what I can come up with.
    thanks all and have a nice day
    barry
     
  24. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    opps ...meant to include richsbv ... for the rivet correction . sorry richsbv
    thanks barry
     
  25. Jim Jones

    Jim Jones Subscriber

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    My local Ace hardware store has a variety of solid, hollow, and split rivits with as small as 1/8" diameter shanks. If the holes have been enlarged to accomodate screws, hardware store rivits might fit.
     
  26. bshaffer

    bshaffer Member

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    Jim,
    thanks for the reference to ACE --actually there is an ACE w/in a mile of me -will look tomorrow
    1/8 may be a liitle big -but I'll check on what they carry
    thanks
    barry