Selenium Toning after Fixer w/ Hardener

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by jvarsoke, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. jvarsoke

    jvarsoke Member

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    Before I was convinced of the value of applying Selenium toning to my prints, I used Kodak's Rapid Fixer w/ Hardener on them. Is there any way to Se Tone the prints now? I've tried a 1:20 dilution of Kodak's Rapid Se Toner for 5mins and 15mins without noticible effect, though I just might not be seeing it.

    Then again, I tried to tone a few prints fixed with Ilford Rapid Fixer, and saw no results either. I believe this fixer doesn't have hardener in it because the instructions say "Do not use with a fixer hardener," which I take to mean they are incompatible, rather than it would be redundant and bad.

    I'm toning for Archival reasons, mostly, if this makes any difference.

    Any suggestions on toning these prints? I'd hate to sell non-archival quality prints.
     
  2. Ryuji

    Ryuji Member

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    KRST 1:20 is sometimes unreliable. Use 1:10 or stronger. What paper are you using? And what paper developer? Some papers are less obvious in toning effect with KRST, perhaps except the deepening of shadow areas. (Developer used has effects as well.)

    I see little or no relation between hardening and toning effect with KRST with modern papers made by major manufacturers, among what I use. Most papers are hardened to such a great degree that hardener in fix is unnecessary and probably doesn't do anything useful.
     
  3. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I would refix in plain hypo or a non-hardening fix, rewash, tone, and wash in that situation.

    If you use an alkaline fixer, you will likely find your toning times to be significantly shorter in KRST than with an acid fixer.
     
  4. Early Riser

    Early Riser Subscriber

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    Hardeners in fixer are rarely needed with modern papers and with many modern films.
    It may not be possible to selenium tone a print that has been hardened. I know that Kodak recommends against hardening prints to be toned.
     
  5. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear jvarsoke,

    You don't mention the paper you are using. I have found that Ilford and Kodak RC papers don't really change color dramatically in 1:20, although they do get darker.

    Neal Wydra
     
  6. jvarsoke

    jvarsoke Member

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    Sorry for not mentioning the paper; it's Ilford Multigrade IV Fiber (which is supposed to be rather friendly to selenium toning). The developer is LPD.

    Other than stealing litmus paper from the local high school, how do I figure out if Kodak's Rapid Selenium Toner is an acid or base? It doesn't say as much on the bottle.

    Also, does anyone know if Heilco's Perma-Wash is an effective Hypo Clear for use with Selenium Toner? I also have Berg's hypo-clear but am running a little short on it at the moment.
     
  7. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    We use Heilco's permawash quite often.

    after the toning, not with the selenium, altho the directions say one can use the toner with HCA. That is old thinking and that position changed years ago.
     
  8. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Kodak HCA is primarily Sodium sulfite.
     
  9. Tach

    Tach Member

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    In my experience, is VERY difficult to get a tone change with normal MGIV fiber (KRST 1:9, 15 minutes, and still no change in tone). Warmtone is different in this regards.
     
  10. jvarsoke

    jvarsoke Member

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    I'd rather not have any color change. Unless slight tone change is necessary to determine if it worked or not. DMAX change would be fine. But I'm only doing this for archival reasons.