Semi-Stand Workshop with Steve Sherman

Discussion in 'Workshops & Lectures' started by c6h6o3, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Steve Sherman will conduct a hands-on workshop demonstrating his use of minimal agitation techniques on January 21, 2006 at the Metropolitan Center for the Visual Arts in Gaithersburg, MD.

    I had never seen Steve's prints in the flesh until last week. I'd read his View Camera magazine articles, of course, but I had no idea of the power of this technique when properly applied. As soon as Joe Freeman and I saw Steve's prints on New Year's day, we vowed that we would not rest until we had convinced Steve to show us how to do this.

    Some of Steve's prints are currently on display at the Center until Feb. 4. The address is 9300 Gaither Rd., Gaithersburg, MD. Any large format practitioners in the Mid Atlantic area are invited to come on by and look at them. I can almost promise you that if you've never seen Steve's work before you'll want to attend the workshop. No reproduction comes even close to doing them justice.

    Official announcement attached below.
     
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  2. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    No. I would think that 777, since it contains glycin (or so I believe) would be an excellent stand or semi-stand developer. I haven't tried it mostly because it's not a one shot developer, and I'm worried about trying to pour it back into the jug in the dark.

    I did try it with Pyrocat and Sandy King's recommended times and dilutions for TMY. The highlights were blown and there was nowhere near the local contrast Steve gets.

    Steve and I are planning on going out to shoot on the day before the workshop. I'll make some TMY negatives (and some PL100s too) and experiment during the workshop with the master present. I'll let you know what happens.
     
  3. k_jupiter

    k_jupiter Member

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    Since the SOP with 777 is almost continuous agitation (in reality 50% duty cycle), I would suspect that it burns out quickly and needs replentishment in the development cycle. Stand or semi-stand might not work as it might burn out too quick and leave highlights way to underdone. I have thought of using 777 in my rotational tank on 5x7 but haven't had the time to do the investigative work necessary to pull that combo off. So far I have used 777 in large 'small' tanks utilizing twice the volume required for any one roll or set of sheets of film. I have a medium sized Patterson that I have done 3x4 and 4x5 sheets in in small tubes placed in the tank. I tried Efke 100 and it worked great at E.I.80.

    tim in san jose
     
  4. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

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    Glycin is supposed to be good for stand development, but my own experiments with it have not shown it to provide any advantage over straight Pyrocat-HD. In fact, for a non-staining developer I have gotten much better results with Rodinal.

    BTW, what times did you use for TMY? And what process are you printing with? I just developed some sixty sheets of TMY 5X7 using extreme minimal agitation with the 1:1:150 dilution of Pyrocat-HD and the contrast of most of the negatives is perfect for my printing with long exposure scale processes.

    Sandy

     
  5. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    For a negative calling for +2 development, I gave it 5 stand cycles of 11 minutes each. I would've done it in 4 cycles but I decided to give it a little more time after 3 cycles. The dilution was 10:6:1200, at Steve's suggestion. The negative looks incredibly sharp, but seems to have a lot of general stain. (because of the accelerator having been scaled back?) I'll be printing it on (very probably grade 3) Azo.

    I haven't printed it yet, but I made a second TMY negative of this image which I developed in 777. It's perfect, so the comparison should be interesting. Stay tuned.
     
  6. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

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    That sounds much more like the time recommendation I would give for printing on AZO #2, which has an ES of about 1.65. For AZO 3 about 40 minutes should have been plenty of time. The dilution sound about right.

    Also, what do you mean by "stand cycles"? Is this the number of times you are agitating? If so, you might want to cut that back down to three or four. Every agitation cycle will boost the contrast.

    Sandy

     
  7. Steve Sherman

    Steve Sherman Subscriber

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    I seem to remember Sandy telling me that a little Ascorbic acid will have a reducing effect on base fog. Should also cut down overall length of development time, you might need to slightly reduce the dilution however not more that 200 to 1 of solution A.

    Having seen the negatives in question this past weekend I would say there is even more adjancecy effects possible with reduced agitation periods.

    Keep us posted.

    Steve
     
  8. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    That's the number of times I let the tube sit there for 11 minutes. I therefore agitated 4 times between these for ten seconds and for one minute at the beginning.

    Steve, refresh my memory....why do you back off on the carbonate in relation to the A solution?
     
  9. Steve Sherman

    Steve Sherman Subscriber

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    Jim,

    Pot Carbonate is an accelerator and increases the energy of the developer. When mixed 1 to 1 with solution A and during extended periods of time in developer can increase film base fog. I have reduced Pot Carbonate up to 40 % of A with good results.

    When designing negatives for projection I would also try a small amount of Ascorbic Acid in conjunction with reduced Pot Carbonate. Try 3:2:200 with 1 part of Ascorbic Acid for contact prints and evaluate.

    I got Ascorbic Acid from a local health food store. The brand name NOW is said to be the most pure and comes in easy to dissolve powder form.

    Keep us posted. Steve
     
  10. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

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    Don't add too much ascorbic acid, however, as you will kill the stain.

    What I would recommend is that you mix up a 1% solution of ascorbic acid and add about 10 mls of this solution per liter of working solution of Pyrocat-HD. This will increase the energy of the developer slighly as it reduces B+F by slowing down oxidation.

    For my minimal agitation work I use a dilution of 1.5:1:150, which is not all that different from what Steve is using.

    Sandy

     
  11. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Does 510 have ascorbate in it?
     
  12. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

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    Jay,

    The difference in stain with the addition of ascorbic acid between Hypercat and Pyrocat-HD is IMHO due to the difference in pH of the working solutions. Pyrocat-HD is working at a pH of about 10.9 while the pH of Hypercat is well over 12.

    Bromide does not afffect stain, and the sulfite does in the Pyrocat-HD formula is far below the critical amount where it begins to reduce stain.

    Sandy


     
  13. vet173

    vet173 Member

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    I've been using pyrocat-hd at 1.5:1:200 for semistand with fp-4 and the negs just make me wanna squirt. The micro contrast in an Azo print is somthing that has to be seen to behold. I can't imagine going back to regular agitation, unless I was shooting for the quality of say, newsprint.
     
  14. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    I'll have some of whatever he's been smoking...
     
  15. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    i processed some foggy tmax400 120 film last weekend using semi-stand developement ... 2 rolls, probably the best roll film i have processed in years. i used 73ยบ ansco130 1:10 for 24 mins and inverted the tank 4 times at 15 mins, 20 mins and 23mins.


    clay recently published the formula for mortenson's glycin varient ( here ) and i am going to do the same thing with that stuff and see what happens.

    -john
     
  16. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    ...not in amidol, but the proof I developed in Neutol is excellent. A lot more contrast than I would've thought. This is the only developer I've ever used on TMax which yields a green image stain. It looks a lot like Efke or Ilford films in ABC, but cleaner. Not much general stain at all.

    Tonight I think I'm going to try one using Steve's semi-stand method. (It's the one made at the monastery, Steve. The TMax dupe of the Efke one I ruined in the workshop. I rated it at 200, so I'll be sure to back off considerably on the development.)
     
  17. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Wow. 1:500. Sounds awfully dilute. That doesn't seem to work with Pyrocat very well, but maybe 510 is different.

    I think maybe I'll test with some 4 x 5 film first. I have a lot of it.
     
  18. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

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    Just measure th pH of a working solution of Hypercat and you will ifind that it is well over pH 12, about 12.4 or so from my tests.

    Of course, my measuring instruments could be wrong, but they appear to be working ok because when I measure the pH of other developers, PMK for example, my measurments of pH 9.5 to 9.7 turn out to be very close to to the 9.6 that Hutchings reports.

    It is certain that the combination of even small amounts of sulfite and ascorbic will kill the stain with pyrocatechin developers, unlike pyrogallol types which are obviously more resistant. However, what I am suggesteing is that the pyrocatechin based developer will allow much more ascorbic and/or sulphite without losing the stain if it is working at a higher pH.


    Sandy


     
  19. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

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    Jay,

    I missed the part about using Hypercat with the Pyrocat-HD stock solution so guess you are right about the pH not having a role in the stain.

    My own tests do confirm that the amount of phenidone in the Pyrocat-HD formula is more than needs to be there, and the same is true of potassium bromide. I will most likely amend the formula at some point in the future, though from a practcial consideration there is not much to be gained but perhaps a slight increase in EFS.

    BTW, my use of sodium metabisulfite over sodium sulphite has nothing to do with a desire to decrease the pH of the working solution. The metabisulfite is there to provide stability for the stock solution when mixed with water. For mixture in glycoal the sulpite can be eliminated, with just a very slight loss of energy. However, for many reasons I intend to promote the use of Pyrocat-HD primarily for mixture with water in stock solutions, where is has pretty impressive stability -- at least a year or more. Mixture in glycoal does offer some advantages, both in terms of stability and choice of ingredients, but so to does the convenience of mixture in water.

    As for edge effects, there may be advantages to working solutions that are poorly buffered, but there are also disadvantages. With Pyrocat-HD adjacency effects are determined by type of agitation, and the working solution is well-buffered up to dilutions of about 2:1:400.

    Sandy


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2006
  20. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Jay:

    I developed a negative tonight in 510 at 1:200 using a semi-stand regimen. 4 periods of 10 minutes each at 72 degrees F. Gorgeous. Image stain out the wazoo and very clean. It looks a little thin, but then again so do some of Steve's and there is beau coups stain so it may print with a surprising amount of contrast. I have another one to do tomorrow night and then I'll proof them both on Sunday. Stay tuned. It looks like 40 minutes or so is the time for a normal TMax negative (SBR 7).