shoot to kill?

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by hbc, Feb 27, 2003.

  1. hbc

    hbc Member

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    i ran across this artlicle at;city paper.net. i have personally experienced situations where i would not take my camera out of the bag,there are places in philladelphia i no longer shoot , the subway, independance park near liberty bell, 30th st. train station......... i wonder is this wide spread.
     
  2. hbc

    hbc Member

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    iam sorry the jest of the article is, there have been several incidents here in philly where photogs have been detained for taking pictures in public places.
     
  3. SteveGangi

    SteveGangi Member

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    It is part of the general paranoia. The law says you can photograph an public thing, whether it is a building, a bridge, the Liberty bell, anything so long as you do not trespass on private property without permission or invade someone's privacy. Unfortunately too many security guards either don't know the law or don't care. But, it is better to leave the camera in your bag than get beat up by a guard. On the other hand if you are just walking by and they try to hassle you for having a camera in your possession, call the police and then sue the $#%@ out of the guards and their employer. You can start with unreasonable search and seizure, and unlawful detainment. If they take the camera or film you have them for theft/robbery too.
     
  4. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  5. docholliday

    docholliday Member

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    Remember to keep smiling. When you loose your sense of humour (or your temper), they gain power and feel like their winning. I usually ignore stupid laws like that (what are they going to do, arrest me?) Plus, if you shoot like you mean it (act like a real photographer), they usually leave me alone. If I see them first, I'll go introduce myself, let them see my equip, and even ask if they would like to come watch me work.

    I'm just waiting for the day when I'm shooting a wedding outdoors and some *idiot* tries their "Patriot Act" crap. I'll let the bride kick their ass for me...

    Check with the law before you shoot. Just like rules, laws can be bent or broken, as long as you know them first. Hell, I have the FAA complaint 800 number in my cell phone. Therefore, if some TSA lackie decides to harass me when I fly, I'll ask for the supervisor, and then dial the FAA. Plus, I keep a copy of the 49CFR with me.

    I've seen more 35mm photographers get harrassed than MF or LF people. (Try Indianapolis International Airport) I get a lot of "nice cameras" and "heading to a job, eh" from the TSA people when they see my Hassy. I was surprised. Of course, since the TSA took over, airport checkpoints have been very, very much improved in quality. No more minimum wage *idiots* who are clueless and abuse their (limited) power. The TSA folks are actually very professional, knowledgeable, and usually nice.

    When I'm out and somebody is starting some sh*t with me about shooting, I usually whip out my phone and threaten to call the cops first. "Hold on one moment here while I call the local constabulary (the other person is still taking to me...) and I'll see what they have on the books for such a law" Most times, they give up and walk away, I've only had one incident where they were stubborn and stuck around. When the cops arrived, they basically told the guy he was an idiot, looked at my gear, shrugged, and walked off. If the cop told me to leave, I would, but if not, I'd smile, smile, smile, and work away. (Or, I'll take a picture of the guy who was harrasing me and threaten to use it for a billboard supporting abortion)

    Yup, I'm one of those conspiracy theorizing, stubborn, "hate authority", Dead Kennedy-like people. Come'on, I'm in the computer industry. Since when were we known for being nice people? He He [​IMG]
     
  6. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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  7. SteveGangi

    SteveGangi Member

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    "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry
    into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It
    both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums
    of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind
    has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
    Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer
    up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this
    is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
    -Julius Caesar


    If a Nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose it's freedom;
    and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too.
    - William Somerset Maugham (1874-1965)
     
  8. steve

    steve Member

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    "Therefore, if some TSA lackie decides to harass me when I fly, I'll ask for the supervisor, and then dial the FAA..."

    I don't quite get the point here. The FAA person can do nothing if your complaint is dealing with the TSA. The TSA Security Director, and airport security in itself has nothing to do with the FAA anymore. The fact that they transferred FARS 107, 108, 109 to 49 CFR (part 1500) puts this totally out of FAA jurisdiction.

    So, why "dial the FAA"? You might want to add a TSA number instead.
     
  9. Robert Kennedy

    Robert Kennedy Member

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    In my citythe cops act in a similar fashion. During the NCAA playoff riots, they actively targeted anyone with a camera and let the rubber bullets fly. I saw one reporter from the Daily Wildcat (the UofA paper) get shot point blank with a beanbag gun. The force was so great she literally did a somersault!

    During the anti-war protests, the cops started arresting some anarchists who showed up. Anyone taking pictures was threatened with arrest. Fortunately the Legal Observers showed up!

    Par for the course.
     
  10. docholliday

    docholliday Member

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    The FAA has requested that any problems with airports and/or personnel be directed to them at the 800 number. Calling them to report any problems gets the problem resolved quicker than anything else (Boston Logan is a popular place for these "problems" to occur)
     
  11. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SteveGangi @ Feb 28 2003, 07:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry...
    </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Thanks, Steve.

    This a frightening quote - I believe it accurately describes the situation we face today.

    Reminds me of another - at times the "trite" quotes' inherent truth shines out:

    "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

    I saw a bumper sticker the other day: "God Bless America". One of the things I can do (See Lysistrata on 03/03/2003) is pray that we never need one saying,
    "God Forgive America."
     
  12. docholliday

    docholliday Member

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    Heres one:

    "Those who give up liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
     
  13. tommorris

    tommorris Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Aggie @ Feb 27 2003, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> OR Steve you can defuse it before it ever happens. Go straight to the guards to begin with, open your bag and calmly let them see what you have and hand them if they complain, the print out of the law. Calmly stand there while they read it, and then take your equipment and go ahead and shoot your pictures. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    You think security guards become security guards because they are knowledgable about the law and are literate? Woah.
     
  14. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  15. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    I just made a mental note and BURNED it into my memory:

    To self: *DON"T* get Aggie ticked off at self.
     
  16. SteveGangi

    SteveGangi Member

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    Never get Aggie angry.... Before they were Danes, they called themselves Vikings and they terrorized the rest of us. <giggle>
     
  17. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SteveGangi @ Apr 28 2003, 12:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Never get Aggie angry.... Before they were Danes, they called themselves Vikings and they terrorized the rest of us.&nbsp; <giggle></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    They still do ... at least ONE of them. [​IMG]
     
  18. tommorris

    tommorris Member

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    I'm hoping to knock together some "Photography Law Cards" soon, with all the relevant acts for photographers in the UK to stop the amount of hassle that security guards and cops give photographers going about their business.
     
  19. glewis

    glewis Member

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  20. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (glewis @ May 1 2003, 04:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>as to that Caesar quote-- Urban Legend. GOTO-
    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/caesar.htm</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    I've been there.... One thing to keep in mind is the difficulty in trying to prove a negative fact. The writers there keep stressing the idea that they *could not find* a reference to Julius Ceaser having said that ... athough "It certainly SEEMS as something that he would have said." That is faint proof that it was, in fact, never said.

    They have been studying "official" quotations ... It is very possible that one of the recorders of the day wrote that ... and they have not been "prominent" enough to have been drawn to the public eye lately.

    Whether authentic or not ... it is undeniably "food for thought".
     
  21. SteveGangi

    SteveGangi Member

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    I don't know if it is a true or verified quote, but the words still are close enough to the truth. They are more than a little unsettling and could be attributed to any warmongering tyrant who comes along. In one form or another, it is exactly what they all do.
     
  22. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    I just heard this one:

    "How fortunate it is for governments that the people do not think."

    - Adolph Hitler, 1939

    From the History Channel program of 1 May, 2003

    Let us, as photographers, try to do one thing - Induce those who view our work to THINK - as well as feel.
     
  23. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ed Sukach @ May 2 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

    Let us, as photographers, try to do one thing - Induce those who view our work to THINK - as well as feel. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    I totally agree with this statement. I have always believed that a good honest still photograph of a given situation is far more powerful than both moving pictures or spoken words.
     
  24. Robert

    Robert Member

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    This week the local paper had a short piece on the Dee Brown case. Brown is a former Raptor player. I think currently working in the front office of the Magic. A few years back he was pulled over. The officer claimed he had good reason to pull him over and it wasn't because he was a young black man in an expensive car. Well turns out when he found out who he'd pulled over and that it was going to court the officer embellished his notes. The defense lawyer was able to prove this and the appeals court upheld it. The scary part was when he was questioned about it.

    The lawyer was asked something like this " So this is a good thing. The police won't do this again?"

    Lawyer " No they'll just figure out a better way to cover it up"

    The fact you are within your rights doesn't mean much. Never really did. The question is how much hassle are you willing to put up with? In the end even if you are cleared many will believe you got off on a loop hole.

    The point about asking permission? I'd say never. Asking lets them say no. No is the safe answer. If they come over to hassle you just be nice and smile. Odds are they'll think you're not worth ruining a good coffee break over.

    I found the post about the cops targetting photographers at demos interesting. Here they tend to love them. Gives them photos and videotape to seize later and use in court.
     
  25. tommorris

    tommorris Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Robert @ May 2 2003, 09:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I found the post about the cops targetting photographers at demos interesting. Here they tend to love them. Gives them photos and videotape to seize later and use in court. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Ah, but if you have independent photographers, they will show the truth. Much better to have a police photographer come and cover up the truth.

    What I've seen distinctly over the last few years is a scaling down in the rights of the independent amateur photographer. We should have the right to photograph ANYTHING happenning in public. After all, all we are doing is opening a small door and letting reality come inside...

    (Sorry, it's impossible to do any type of law course and still have a shred of respect left for the police at the end of it...)