Shutters for 19" Apo Artar?

Discussion in 'Ultra Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by sdivot, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. sdivot

    sdivot Subscriber

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    Hi,
    I'm trying to figure out the best shutter for my "new" 19" Apo Artar barrel lens. In a previous post someone said it would work with an Ilex 4. And I can't find it, but I think I saw somewhere that a copal 3 would work as well. I'm getting ready to use the 12x20 I bought recently, and as soon as the doc gives me the go-ahead to lift the weight (I recently had a lung transplant), I'm going to go for it.
    Also, can I put the lens into the shutter myself, or does it take some special skill/tools?
    Can someone enlighten me on this issue?
    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  2. epatsellis

    epatsellis Member

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    Packard, Sinar, Hat, darkslide, any of the above will leave you coffee money, as well as gas money.
     
  3. sdivot

    sdivot Subscriber

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    Epat,
    I get your point, but at $7 and up per sheet of 12x20 film, I'd like to have something a bit more accurate than my hat. Otherwise, I would probably use just that. I know there are folks out there who can get pretty close using hats, lenscaps, hands, etc. But I'm not one of those folks, not yet at least. I'd rather practice that method with 4x5 film, or something a bit cheaper.
    Thanks for the reply,
    Steve
     
  4. epatsellis

    epatsellis Member

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    Steve,
    If you shoot at around f64 or so (typical for ULF, at least for me) and use any filtratration, it's not to terribly hard to add an ND filter to the pack and get your exposures into the 4 sec range, I'd think even if you were 1/2 second off, it wouldn't matter. (though they do have this thing called a stopwatch..) Packards can be a pretty consistent 1/15th or so with a little practice. I have my 19" mounted on a 4x4 lensboard, using a 4x4 to sinar adapter, I just put it in front of the Sinar shutter and fire away, prior to that, lenscaps and packards worked just fine.


    erie
     
  5. Don12x20

    Don12x20 Member

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    A reminder that at 4 seconds computed exposure, you are into reciprocity failure. IF you don't compensate, being off by half second at 4 seconds computed makes no differrence - you're underexposed. Sure the dense areas are fine but the Zone III and below are affected....
     
  6. sun of sand

    sun of sand Member

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    With a hat etc you can flick it of and back on for the count of "Beep Beep" as in what roadrunner would say
    1/4 second
    I always seem to get .22 seconds

    I don't actually say beep beep

    for 1/2 second I do actually say to myself "Miss Izzz"
    I usually get .44 -.52 seconds

    Good "Miss sis sippi" for 1 second
    .87-1.13 seconds

    anything longer than that I count at a good clip 1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, 3 mississippi...
    always right on time. I just did it and got 9.97 seconds. Next I got 10.89 but it felt slow
    9.75 seconds

    I don't know what the tolerances are for shutters but they're probably not exact and missing the time by 1/8 probably isn't going to ruin a photo

    Don't practice on film, practice on a stopwatch for ten minutes.
    At least so that if you have to you can and feel confident doing so
     
  7. colrehogan

    colrehogan Member

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    Yes, the lens will fit into a Copal 3, but I bought mine already in the shutter. It might take someone like SK Grimes to put it in there, you can either call or email them and ask about it.
     
  8. WKF20500

    WKF20500 Member

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    Mine is mounted in an Alphax #4 shutter that works very well. Check www.SKGrimes.com or www.LensN2Shutter.com for some good information about having your Artar mounted in a shutter.
     
  9. Richard K.

    Richard K. Member

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    Hi Steve;

    I would definitely have it mounted into a Copal 3 shutter (Ilexs are OK IMO but not as nice as Copal). It's not just a matter of screwing in the front and rear parts as the shutter diameter is different than the barrel mount. Secondly the separation of the front and rear groups is absolutely critical and this has to measured off the barrel mount and reproduced (with shims possibly, trimming) exactly into the shutter. It takes some work. but you'll have a reliable shutter and a great lens in the end. I would second using Grimes for this job!

    -Richard
     
  10. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    There isn't any big inter-lens (leaf) shutter that has a speed slower than 1 second. (Unless it is dirty). For the apertures normally used for ULF, considering the depth-of-field requirements usually wanted, as well as the reciprocity effect of shooting at longer than 1 second speeds, it would seem to be almost useless to have a 19" lens mounted in a leaf-shutter. Most long lenses are used with Packard type shutters, which, when used with a stopwatch can be very accurate. When you get into the 4 to 20 second (or longer) exposure timing range, the minor variance in hand-to-eye coordination of watching the stop watch and opening and closing the shutter is miniscule. Years ago (late 1970s, early 1980s) I did a lot of catalog photography using hot lights and tungsten-balanced Ektachrome in 8x10. All my exposures were longer than 1 second. I always got consistently exposed transparencies...and we all know that transparency film has the least margin for error in exposure.

    Also, a consideration in the case of your 19" Artar, is that the iris aperture in the barrel mount for the Artar has more blades, and produces a more "round" hole than the current Copal shutters, thus giving you more pleasing out-of-focus effects. (Bokeh).

    Even with my extensive personal shooting in 5x7 these days, I find that many times I need to expose a negative for longer than the 1 second maximum available to me on all my shuttered lenses.

    If you are shooting in a studio with electronic flash, then the exposure time is determined by the flash duration, and not by how long the shutter is open, thus a Packard-type shutter with flash sync is all you need.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2008
  11. bobherbst

    bobherbst Member

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    I use an Ilex #4 with my 19" red dot. Make sure to purchase a shutter tester and calibrate the shutter. You should calibrate every shutter you use especially when shooting 12x20 with the cost of film. I put pencil marks on the shutter dial for the speeds e.g. 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc. All Ilex shutters vary in actual speed from the markings on the dial regardless of when they have last been CLAed. A good service technician will give you a calibration sheet when a shutter is CLAed, but Ilex shutters may vary with use or age. You should always fire an Ilex shutter a couple of times at the desired speed before exposure to get the most accurate exposure. Copal shutters are more accurate but are much more expensive. Pay someone to do the mounting. Other posts here mention a couple of options.

    Bob

     
  12. Curt

    Curt Subscriber

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  13. epatsellis

    epatsellis Member

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    speaking as someone who has written ad copy for the last quarter century, while S.K. Grimes, et al all do great work, remember that "advertising" is intended to separate you from your money, for all of the above points mentioned, a Packard is still the best and most cost effective solution (as it can be used with all the other barrel lenses you're likely to start collecting once you have one)

    erie
     
  14. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    The Grimes folks mounted my 19" Artar into a Copal 3 shutter.

    It is ever so much more elegant to be able to set the iris on f64, open the shutter and count off the seconds... then close the shutter.

    More elegant by far, than it was to slip my lens sock shutter over the barrel mounted Artar, set the iris diaphragm to f64, slip off the sock shutter and count off the seconds, then slip my lens sock shutter back over the barrel mounted Artar.

    Can't see any difference in the negatives, But...
     
  15. sdivot

    sdivot Subscriber

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    Thanks for all the replies. Ok, I'm thinking of bidding on a packard shutter on ebay. It is a 4 inch shutter with a 2 inch opening. Here's the thing though: I don't really know anything about these shutters at all. How do they work? How are they mounted? What are the speeds?
    Any insight/advice is appreciated.
    Steve (The Packard Ignoramous)
     
  16. Phil

    Phil Member

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  17. epatsellis

    epatsellis Member

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