Sizing final substrate for carbon printing?

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by mark, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. mark

    mark Member

    Messages:
    5,264
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2003
    Yes I could use fixed out photo paper but I don't have any. What I have is water color paper and gelatin. Is this advisable or is it an issue waiting to happen?

    I am gathering everything I need to jump in and the paper is holding me back.
     
  2. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

    Messages:
    577
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ottawa, Onta
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Mark,

    WC paper and gelatin can work. You will require some kind of hardener (chrome alum, formalin, glyoxal, glut etc.,).

    Depending upon the weight and surface of WC paper, you may have to soak it in gelatin, or just brush on one coat.

    In a pinch, cardstock brushed with dilute "white glue" and allowed to dry will work - it won't be archival though.

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. Andrew O'Neill

    Andrew O'Neill Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,163
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2004
    Location:
    Coquitlam, B
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Or you could use matte acrylic polymer such as Golden GAC 100 and a hot dog paint roller.
     
  4. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,419
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Andrew- I have made carbons on fixed out silver paper, I am a novice at this but what would you suggest as a support for carbon printing that would give me the same kind of result as fixed out silver??
    The price of silver paper is getting up there , not to mention the work to get it prepped for carbon transfer.

    I am contemplating mounting Yuppo onto metal and using this as the base , anyone try this yet?
     
  5. DarkroomDan

    DarkroomDan Subscriber

    Messages:
    239
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Location:
    Enumclaw, WA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Bob,
    I have used Yuppo both as s support when making carbon tissue and as a final support. It works fine for both purposes without the need for sizing. It is dimensionally stable at the sizes I used (YMMV). If stability is the reason you are thinking of mounting it onto metal, you may want to try it without just to see if it works for you. You may be able to eliminate a step.

    I really like Yuppo for tissue support but not so much as a final support. I don't care for the plastic look and feel of the finished print.

    Dan
     
  6. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,419
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Thank you for your response.

    I like the glossy look of carbon on silver fixed paper, do you think Yuppo gives the same kind of look?

    I am using metal for registration work, and you are right with Yuppo I may not need , as I believe it does not shrink as paper does,

    have you ever printed Pt PD on Yuppo??


     
  7. Andrew O'Neill

    Andrew O'Neill Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,163
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2004
    Location:
    Coquitlam, B
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I would be very careful transfering onto Yupo. According to Sandy King, the image may "snap" off of it, if you live in a very dry region.

    Bob, I'm really liking acrylic polymer sized art papers. After coating with the hotdog roller, I zap it in the drymount press for 2 minutes to "melt" the coating to give it a smooth surface with a very slight sheen. One thing that I want to try is making my own baryta coated paper. I need a business license to get my hands on barium sulfate, though. Denise Ross has an article at the Lightfarm: http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/PaperAndCoating/PaperAndCoatingPart4.htm

    There is also an article from 1914 Posted by Richard Sullivan over at B&S carbon forum.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2012
  8. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

    Messages:
    577
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ottawa, Onta
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Here in Ottawa we go from frozen winters to sweltering summers - I've had prints literally fall off Yupo with a change of season.
     
  9. DarkroomDan

    DarkroomDan Subscriber

    Messages:
    239
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Location:
    Enumclaw, WA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Bob,

    Yuppo comes in more that one surface. The variety I have is like vellum and the prints I made on it are not the same as those I did on fixed out silver papers. They are also different than those on sized art papers.

    Because I did not like the plastic look and feel I was getting, I did not transfer many prints to Yuppo. I haven't enough experience with it to class myself as an authority.

    As to prints popping off, I hadn't heard of that before but I live in an area where the humidity is generally moderate all year round.

    Dan
     
  10. gmikol

    gmikol Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Location:
    Vancouver, W
    Shooter:
    35mm
    http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1218-home-made-baryta-paper-1914/

    For those who aren't members or haven't seen it.

    If you use this method, you should be able to get the barium chloride and ammonium sulfate with less trouble. This is the method I plan on trying. I should note, though, that a local chemical supplier to me (Portland, OR) doesn't appear to have any restrictions on the purchase of barium sulfate listed in their catalog.

    I suppose there might be restrictions on buying pharmaceutical-grade barium sulfate, though.

    --Greg
     
  11. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,419
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Thank you and Andrew, You have helped me with my intents with Yuppo , it makes sense that the carbon would fall off in extreme situations , and we do get them here in Canada eh.
    btw carbon will pop off diabond , due to the extremes in temp and humidity, makes sense that Yuppo will.


    There is a thread on uncoated Bartya paper I believe on Kentmere stock.
    what do you both think about that stock and its applications?

    Here is a crazy question that I have that I have not seen the answer on any of the forums I frequent , and I think Sandy just thinks I am crazy , with this multiple hit craving.

    I like to try Pt Pd as a first laydown with carbon as second hit, the substrate will be mounted to metal to avoid paper shrinkage and registration issues. Have either of you tried this or know of someone who has. This possibility really intriques me and need some advice or guidence to a possible paper that would work.
    I envision laying down the pt pd first and then hit a second hit with carbon.
    The problem with this will be finding the paper that works well with pt pd and then one that accepts carbon easily, Maybe some kind of coating that you are advising on Andrew?

    Kind of like using a softer filter for highlight detail and #5 filter for contrast and density buildup in Silver.


     
  12. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

    Messages:
    577
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ottawa, Onta
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Crazy idea? Yes... and I've done something very similar :smile:

    I attempted carbon atop VDB and discovered several issues: the paper requirements for VDB (and many other iron processes) and those for carbon are very different. I use plain Canson or Strathmore Bristol for VDB; it's sturdy and has enough 'tooth'. However, I needed to apply a very generous layer of sizing/coating over the VDB so that the carbon would adhere. A single-transfer exposes the VDB to a lot of dichromate - it caused some bleaching/mottling. A double-transfer would likely lessen or eliminate that issue. (Pd/Pd is probably more tolerant to dichro.) After some tinkering, I produced a print with matte highlights and glossy shadows - not 'bad' looking, but not showing enough promise for me to spend any more time tinkering.

    So, if you want to give it a try, I'd suggest starting with whatever paper works for your Pt/Pd process, and take it from there with a generous coat of gelatin, acrylic etc., before laying on the carbon.

    Have fun!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  13. mark

    mark Member

    Messages:
    5,264
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2003
    Silly question, but what is a hot dog roller?

    Acrylic polymer seems like the simplest method if all you do is roll it on and zap it. Is zapping necessary? What does the polymer do to the texture of the paper? Anyone know about the effects of the polymer over time?

     
  14. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I think photoformulary is going to get some more uncoated baryta paper if the demand is there.

    We used this at the George Eastman House emulsion workshop with Ron & Mark Osterman.

    I suspect it would make an excellent final support, and it's already prepared. Since it's barium sulfate in gelatin, a transfer would make "unity" with it just as tenaciously as any prepared final support. Although, I've personally never done it...

    Thread here (seems Bob has beat me to it)
     
  15. Andrew O'Neill

    Andrew O'Neill Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,163
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2004
    Location:
    Coquitlam, B
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Sorry about that. A hot dog roller looks like this:

    Any paint/hardware store will have 'em.

    Bob, I've never tried that but have often thought about doing the same with a Kallitype print.
     

    Attached Files: