Sodium Carbonate

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Jaq, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. Jaq

    Jaq Member

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    Hi

    I recently was given a large bucket of sodium carbonate. I know that this chemical is used in a photographic process, I just can't find out which one from the internet.
    Do any of you know? :confused:

    Thanks for the info.

    Regards,

    Emile
     
  2. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    I use it in developers - both film and paper. Agfa, IIRC, had some fixer formulas that used it.
    juan
     
  3. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    It is used in just about every developer as an accelarator.
     
  4. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    paper developers for sure

    sod carb is used in all sorts of b&w paper developers.

    Dektol 1l stock solution - diluted between 1:1 and 1:4 - from memory - is about:

    3g metol (or 0.3g phenidone) , 45g sodium sulfite, 12g hydroquinone, 70g Sodium Carbonate, and then 2 -4 g of Potassium Bromide.
     
  5. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Not quite, but very many. It is as noted before an "accelerator" for developers. In plain terms, an alkalai, since all common developers* will not function in a neutral or acidic environment.

    * except amidol

    Common accelerators are:
    Sodium Sulfite
    Borax
    Sodium Metaborate
    Sodium Carbonate
    Potassium Carbonate
    TSP Tri sodium Phosphate
    Sodium Hydroxide
    Potassium Hydroxide

    Sodium Carbonate is used in something roughly like half of the several hundred developer formulas I have in my computer (don't ask, it's an obsession)

    It's also used in some toners and a small miscelany of other photograpic processes,

    Best,

    C
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2008
  6. dpurdy

    dpurdy Member

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    I don't think sodium sulfite is ever going to get your developer going. I know I mix my paper developer with a bunch of sodium sulfite and sodium carbonate and if I leave out the sodium carbonate the developer doesn't do a darn thing regardless of how much sodium sulfite it has in there.
     
  7. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    Ascertain in what form is the sodium carbonate (anhydrous? monohydrate? crystal?). It can be used to make up most paper developers, some (few) film developers.

    Also, a 2 % solution after print fixing and before washing of fiber-based papers speeds up your wash time.
    John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA
     
  8. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    D-23 has only Metol, sodium sulfite and water and is nearly as active as D-76. However, we seldom develop paper in D-76 either.
     
  9. Jaq

    Jaq Member

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    OK, that makes sense actually. I also received a bucket of sodium sulfite, but I thought it was used only in fixers. I was slightly disappointed as I thought I had half of the ingredients. Excellent!
    Do any of you know (dpurdy for example :tongue:) a formula that I could use as a paper developer using both sodium carbonate and sodium sulfite?
     
  10. dpurdy

    dpurdy Member

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    Just about all the paper formulas I know of use both. The one I use most for commercial work is 2.7 grams metol, 40 grams sod. sulfite, 10.6 grams Hydroquinone, 87 grams sod. carbonate, 0.8 grams Pot Bromide. Makes a liter of stock and dilutes 1:2 and lasts all day.

    D-23 does indeed utilize only 7.5 grams metol and 100 grams sodium sulfite in a liter working solution. I have never tried it. But I will point out that the divided developers all store the developing agents in solution with sodium sulfite. The sodium carbonate is kept in solution by it's self. far as I know.
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    D-72, or Dektol is the most common formula out there for home mixing and usable for papers.

    PE
     
  12. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Dilute 1:7 for a slow working semi-compensating
    developer; 500ml, one 120 roll, 16 minutes. Works
    well for me. Dan
     
  13. tpersin

    tpersin Member

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    it's also often used to bleach cyanotypes (before toning) formula vary..... 1g Na2CO3:100ml H2O often works well....
     
  14. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Slightly less than half, 240 or 42% of the 567 film developers and 140 or about 55% of 241 paper developers I have listed have Sodium Carbonate in my very unscientific query. Those numbers are less accurate than they look since there are a few duplicate formulations I have not yet weeded out and a few just plain dubious formulas I have sifted off obscure corners of the net. But I suspect the general tendency for carbonate to be used is very closely mirrored by my numbers.

    C
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2008
  15. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Check in the APUG articles under paper developers.

    www.apug.org/forums/forum222

    Most of those listed show sulfite and carbonate.

    C
     
  16. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Sodium Sulfite is almost always used in home mixed wash aid. Within the several chemicals have been shown to have some effectiveness as wash aids, Sodium Sulfite is predominant. I have not seen carbonate listed among them, but can't rule it out since several alkalais are noted as having measurable benefits for washing.

    One common formula for Wash Aid:

    Stock Solution
    Water 750 ml
    Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 100 gr
    Sodium Metabisulfite 25 gr
    Cold water to 1.0 L

    Dilute 1+4 for use

    I gather sulfite by itself is workable as a wash aid, but do not have solid confirmation of that. Maybe one of our resident chemist experts could weigh in?

    C
     
  17. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    PC-TEA has neither sulfite nor carbonate. The stock contains only Phenidone, ascorbic acid and triethanolamine. Add ony water to get the working solution.
     
  18. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Agfa used to recommend a carbonate solution as a wash aid in the 70s. I think the idea was that increasing the pH of the emulsion would cuase the emulsion to swell, allowing the fixer to wash out faster.
     
  19. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Interesting. I found this comparison of chemicals used as wash aid:

    Solution........................pH at M/250...............Effectiveness relative
    .................................................. ....................to pure water

    Demineralized water...............~6............................ ...1.0
    Sodium chloride.....................6.1.......................... .....1.5
    Sodium bisulfite.....................4.1................. ..............2.8
    Sodium sulfate.......................6.4................. ..............14
    Sodium bicarbonate................8.4.................... ............49
    Sodium sulfite........................9.2....................... ........87
    Sodium hydroxide...................11.6.................. ............89

    I don't remember where I dug it up, but your information seems like it fits.

    C
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The table above was recently posted here on APUG, and one attribute is to Grant Haist. That progression is correct, but the potential for damage to the film or paper goes up with pH above about 8, and therefore a hardener was used in these situations.

    PE
     
  21. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I don't see any carbonate. Just what is meant by effectiveness?
    Were equal molar quantities used? Times and temperatures.?
    Not knowing the test parameters what are we to make of
    those numbers? Dan
     
  22. Paul Verizzo

    Paul Verizzo Member

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    It came from Haist, quoting other Kodak researchers

    It came from Haist, quoting other Kodak researchers.

    The one common salt not listed which I think would be of "great" interest is sodium carbonate. I presume it would rate up there close to the hydroxide.

    IIRC, Kodak HCA is sodium sulfite plus sodium bisulfite or some other acidic salt. I presume to lessen the swelling of the gelatin, which will give faster results.
     
  23. CBG

    CBG Member

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    I can't be more informative. Wish I had access to original text in full. I take it that those chemicals help wash paper in rough proportion to the "effectiveness numbers", but that said, I'm sticking with sulfite.

    C
     
  24. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I see the ph was measured at a concentration of 1/250
    molar. It would be a generalization to say those ph values
    hold at higher or lower concentrations. I'd need to run some
    numbers but can say now that M/250 is very little chemistry.
    Unrealistically little; less than one gram/liter of any of the
    chemicals listed. Hard to believe. Explanation?

    And effectiveness? How so; maybe half the water or half
    the time? Maybe half the remaining hypo using the
    same wash procedure?

    All in all, just some more information that leaves us
    hanging; RE the discussion concerning hypo testing.
    I've more to add to that thread. Dan