Some Jobo 4x5 questions

Discussion in 'Darkroom Equipment' started by waynecrider, Apr 4, 2006.

  1. waynecrider

    waynecrider Member

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    I bought a used CPE2 processor with a 2500 tank and whatever reel. From what I read there are two reels, an older one and newer one. How do I tell the difference, and which one that I have?

    Secondly, are there some sort of additional clips that are suppose to hold the film in? Loading a sheet and observing the placement does not give me alot of faith that the sheet will not come out in rotation.

    Lastly, I've been reading the online manual. So far no mention of a pre-soak. What's the deal with this and 4x5 as well as the smaller rollfilm formats.
    Thanks for the help.
     
  2. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear Wayne,

    I can't help with telling the new ones from the old ones. The ones I own have two baffles that snap in place to, I assume to improve the agitation and hold the sheets in place. I've seen posts from people who do not use the baffles and who are happy with their results. I use them and am happy with my results (at least in terms of the equipment performance <g>).

    To presoak or not to presoak? That's been argued for quite some time. (Search for threads if you are interested.) If it works for you, do it. If not using a presoak works, don't presoak. (I think Kodak specifies a presoak for C-41 in rotary processors but I'm not sure.)

    Neal Wydra
     
  3. Denis P.

    Denis P. Member

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    Wayne, some photos would help...
    The newer reels have jobo code 2509N, and you can find the illustrations online, in various onlihe shops, etc... From that, you'll be able to see which one you have.
    I have 2509N (newer one), and it uses "clips" - but can also be used without them - so no big deal if you don't have the clips.

    I'm not sure about older style reels - I've seen some photos on German ebay advertising some reels for 4x5 format, which don't look like the ones I have. Might be those older ones - they look just like ordinary 35/120 reeels, just with longer center "core"...

    Anyway, try the ones you have with some test shots, and see what you get.

    As for pre-soak, I use Efke films, where pre-soak is a must - both with 120 rolls and 4x5 sheets. 5 minutes presoak first, followed by development, etc...
    Jobo says in their instructions that pre-soak will enable you to use standard (manual) times, as it "compensates" for the constant rotary motion. I still shorten my usual "manual" times with Jobo - i.e. if normal dev. time in manual tank with manual inversion is 10 minutes with 5 seconds inversion every minute, then I use 5 minutes presoak and 9 minutes development in Jobo for the same film.

    Just my 2 cents... I'm not an expert in these matters, just a happy Jobo user with several film formats - from 35mm to 5x7 :smile:

    Regards,

    Denis
     
  4. Lopaka

    Lopaka Member

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    I use a 5 minute pre-soak on B&W - T-max seems to come out fine without any funky colors left in the base after the final wash. Kodak and Jobo both say do not use a pre-soak for color films (C-41 or E-6), but mount the loaded tank on the machine and let it run in the tempering bath 4 to 6 minutes to bring the film up to processing temerature before starting development.
    Good luck
    Bob
     
  5. waynecrider

    waynecrider Member

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    My reel has three locking positions. 1 for 4x5, another for what looks like something 3.5 inches wide (apparently not 3.25 x 4.25) and the smallest being 120.
     
  6. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    My older 2509 "reel" (not the N model) has part numbers stamped on one of the spokes near the hub. The lower one (goes on the bottom of the tank) is 04 068 and the upper part is 04 067.

    I tried it a few times with B&W and always had uneven development and flow pattern streaking, but that was when the CPE2 had two speeds, and before Jobo changed their instructions to suggest a pre-soak and recommended the higher, not the lower rotational speed. The streaking problems also occurred in 35mm and 120. I haven't tried using the more current recommendations for 4x5. Performance was so poor with 4x5 that I haven't convinced myself to purchase a 2509N set to try. I figured that the advent of the expert drums constituted an admission by Jobo that I couldn't expect the promised performance from the older design.

    Lee
     
  7. waynecrider

    waynecrider Member

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    Yep, it's the older reel. Do you know what format the middle position is?

    Beyond that, I'm not too excited by your experiences.
     
  8. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    I'm not sure, but perhaps 9x12 cm sheet film, as that's just over 9 cm spacing.

    Nor was I. :smile: The fact that they had a really big push with Sexton promoting the expert drums within 18 to 24 months of my purchase really turned me off, as that would have required abandoning a near-new multi-hundred dollar system for a new multi-thousand dollar system in order to get the performance promised with the original system. I only bought in the first place because I ended up working in an unheated basement after being promised I could use a heated part of the house for processing.

    That said, I did recently try a combination of 35mm film and developer similar to what failed miserably in 1982, Rodinal 1:100 and a slow film, with the now recommended pre-soak and faster rotation. I got good even negatives without the flow marks from the reel spokes that were very heavy back then, but the film change and added sodium ascorbate make the comparison not exactly equal.

    I'm not a big fan of constant film development agitation, so I'm headed in other directions than what's suited to the Jobo. Give it a trial run at high rotational speed and with the presoak. You'll only lose a little time and a couple of sheets of film. People often recommend 4 sheets max with the 2509N. The clips that were added to the 2509N were designed to break up the flow pattern and help keep the film in place.

    Sorry to be the bearer of disappointing news. Perhaps your luck will be better than mine. Choice of developer will likely also play a role, as well as other variables, so a test is probably in order.

    If you get the 2509N reels, I'd love to hear how your results differ from the older 2509. If you have good luck I might try a set.

    Lee
     
  9. Bob F.

    Bob F. Member

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    You will find many conflicting tales of the 2509(N) reels: some people always have problems with them, some never have problems with them. I've read them all (it seems :wink: ) and there does not seem to be any common denominator as to why some have trouble and some do not: presoak/no presoak, N-type reels/older reels, slow speed/fast speed, 4 sheets per reel/6 sheets per reel, etc, etc/not-etc, etc...

    I have never have a noticeable problem with my 2509N reels (excepting usual idiot mistakes) but people with far, far more experience than I always had a problem and have moved on. Whatever the problem is, it does not appear to be an issue of skill or knowledge! I check with a spirit level to make sure the tank is level and use 300ml in the single reel tank on teh fast speed setting. I use Ilford films mainly and do not pre-soak them. I do presoak Tmax Readlyloads as Kodak recommend (IIRC - might have been a Jobo recommendation).

    Good luck! Bob.
     
  10. Paul Sorensen

    Paul Sorensen Member

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    I have a couple of the original 2509 reels and one 2509N. I prefer the N a great deal. I have had problems with the film sliding a great deal with the older style and none with the newer ones. I am actually going to try to get my hands on two more of the newer ones and unload the old reels.
     
  11. L Gebhardt

    L Gebhardt Subscriber

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    I have the newer reels and I have seen density build at the edges where the film is in the guides. I have since read in an old Jobo publication that the solution to this is to only use 4 sheets instead of 6. Leave the center slot empty. I always used the baffles. I used speed F on the CPP2.

    I solved the density problems when I ended up with a 3010 expert drum in an auction for an ATL2000. This helped me out, but won't work for you with the CPE. Try only 4 sheets if you have problems.
     
  12. darr

    darr Subscriber

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    I am using the 2509N reels with an ATL 1000 with no problems. I have used the smaller one reel tank and the larger two reel tank. I do put the baffles in place.
     
  13. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    The claim about 4 sheets is with the older reels. The whole point of the new reels was to allow six sheets. The inserts aren't to keep the film in place it's to control the follow of chemicals. The film doesn't go anyplace in my expierence.

    The 2509N handles:

    4x5
    9x12
    6x9 cm