Split toning question...

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Guillaume Zuili, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi,

    I have been lurking to some beautiful split sepia-selenium prints last week at Bob's place. Last night I couldn't resist and did some prints on Varycon.
    This morning I did the toning and I'm quite puzzled by the strong reaction of the sepia toner. Way too much. And the split didn't really work after.
    Bleach was diluted 1 + 4 and the effect on the print was very light. But when I put it in the sepia toner it jumped like crazy in a matter of second.

    So...
    Do I need to dilute even further the bleach ?
    Do I need to dilute the stinky one to make it weak ?
    Do I need to go back to Toronto ?... :smile:

    Thanks !
    G.
     
  2. du a gwyn

    du a gwyn Member

    Messages:
    36
    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    split toning

    i'm also a big fan of split toning.1+4 bleach is a bit strong,by diluting it is going to gives you more control.what i have found (been printing and toning for nearly 20yrs)yes it does give you more control but the weaker the bleach is,it not only bleach's the highlight but it also starting to go into the shadow's.i've got various strengh's of bleach in the darkroom ready to use down to 50/50%.moral of the story is as far as i'm concered is a stronger bleach gives me a better split tone.most times my print will only be in the bleach for a few seconds.what you have got to be remember is that the print will still bleach when you take it out of the bleach,have a tray or runing water ready and wash it as soon as you can
     
  3. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks. I do put them in running water asap. Interesting that bleach...
     
  4. du a gwyn

    du a gwyn Member

    Messages:
    36
    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    split toning

    :surprised:Wales to Los Angeles is a bit to far or i would have poped over for a toning sesion!!!!
     
  5. Shmoo

    Shmoo Member

    Messages:
    972
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2003
    Location:
    Southern Cal
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Boy, I can heartily recommend Tim Rudmans book on toning...he really explains the hows and whys of toning as well as the techniques.
     
  6. Dinesh

    Dinesh Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,667
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I would go with option "C", come back to Toronto!

    Buy the convict in the orange jumpsuit a few beers and observe (or just pm him and buy me the beers! :tongue:)
     
  7. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Du a gwyn, there are a couple of direct buses from Heathrow. I pick you up at the end of the line !
    Shmoo, I have the book lost somewhere in the house. Last time I opened it I was seasick, too colorful to my taste...! (No offense intended)
    Dinesh, I'm very tempted by option C ! Need to observe again, and few beers... Hmm why not ?
     
  8. snallan

    snallan Member

    Messages:
    524
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    Cambridge, U
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hey Guillaume, what type of toner are you using? Is it sulphide, thiocarbamide, or polysulphide?

    Generally the degree of toning when split toning will be controlled by the extent of bleaching, therefore more dilute bleaches will give more control. The thing to remember is that, although the bleaching starts in the highlights, by the time you see the action there, the bleach is already working on the finer grain in the midtones, so the toning action can go further than you might have expected (though this can be very dependent on the paper used). So, experiment, and keep good notes of what you are doing.

    A twist to this is if you are using a polysulphide toner, they can tone more enthusiastically in dilute solutions, i.e. if you use a plain water bath to stop the toning. If you are using a polysulphide toner, a sodium sulphite stop bath (about 10%) will stop toning when required.
     
  9. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Steve, I'm using the sulphide one. They turned ok. I reprinted a couple plus some new and tomorrow morning will try with more diluted bleach and quick pull...
    Will see.
     
  10. nze

    nze Member

    Messages:
    705
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2004
    Location:
    France
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I think that you may dissolve the stinky thing. I use to do mine in one bath by adding 1 tea spoon of sodium metaborate and 2ml of viradon in a 1+25 dilute selenium solution. It works slowly but give such nice tone.
     
  11. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,311
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Hey Guillaume

    just got the negs, waiting for the dev,

    I am a bit confused with the dilution.. I seems pretty strong, to me, as well the paper is very active to any bleach tone if it is the same paper we were using. For most split toning I am using a cold tone paper and remember the reaction that we had when we first toned the trees, man it went fast.
    Also as you noted to me that sometimes it is very hot in your darkroom, if the ambient temp is too high the chems could be too hot and be working at hyper speed.
    I would think that you should really dilute the bleach and the stinky as well and do some tests. less time in the bleach as well just as suggested wash the print immediately.
    Are you doing the sepia first???
    If you are doing the selenium first , you may be locking in the blacks and lower mid tones and not seeing the true effect of the bleach.
    This may throw you off.
    We always do the selenium last and watch for the split in this step.

    As far as coming back, you are always welcome in our home,,,
    I can't believe that bastard Dinesh though , anything for a beer , I mean what kind of individual would stoop to the lows that he suggests in his post.
    crate is made and we should be shipping shortly.

    best regards
    Bob

     
  12. Dinesh

    Dinesh Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,667
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    I have no shame!
     
  13. Rich Ullsmith

    Rich Ullsmith Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,000
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    For many of the reasons listed above, I selenium tone first. That holds the lower values while the bleach works, and you can use a stronger bleach, which I agree with folks above that it gives a better split.

    Obviously, going this route the selenium toner needs to be a little dilute so you can monitor it and yank. I don't like leaving a fiber print in bleach for extended periods, because it takes more time than you think to clear the fibers.
     
  14. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ok, I nailed it !
    - Bleach diluted 1+5, 15 seconds in it.
    - Stinky diluted 1+4, 1 minute in it.
    Almost no visible result in open light.
    - Magic happening in Selenium for 2/3 minutes diluted 1+10
    Will post tomorrow the results and comparative with previous attempt.

    Thank you all for the imput.

    Bob, Varycon is the VC brother of Emak. Be kind with Dinesh if possible !
    Happy beer Dinesh !
    Christian, I want to try your cocktail !
    Rich, I will try with selenium first to see how it goes.

    Thanks again all.
    Guillaume
     
  15. jfish

    jfish Member

    Messages:
    76
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    The way I've always done it is this:
    1) I use the regular bleach amount/strength and print just slightly darker than normal. Depending on the image and effect I want to convey, maybe 1/2 grade flatter too.
    2) Develop normally. After the fix, I rinse for 1 minute under pretty fast water.
    3) bleach for 20 sec. (usually 35) to 1 minute max!
    4) rinse again under strong water wash for 1 minute, and trying to dump the tray of water to really get the bleach off the paper and out of the tray.
    5) Put in normal strength of Sepia for 45 seconds.
    6) rinse again under strong water wash for 1 minute, again dumping the water to get the chemical out.
    7) Put in PermaWash, normal dilution, for 1 minute. This stops any further Sepia toning.
    8) rinse again under strong water wash for 1 minute, again dumping the water to get the chemical out.
    9) Put in Selenium 1:3 for 30 to 45 sec.
    10) rinse again under strong water wash for 1 minute, again dumping the water to get the chemical out.
    11) Put in PermaWash, normal dilution, for 5 minute. This stops any further Selenium toning.
    12) 5 minute final wash.

    Keep in mind that the sepia will affect the highs, and the selenium the shadows. You want to only get the sepia to get into the upper highs, maybe the upper grays (lighter ones) but not too far down into the shadow area and darker grays. The Selenium will quickly turn the shadows and creep into the lower darker areas/grays. The interesting part is where the sepia and selenium tones meet. I've attached 3 examples, Levi's and WB are from jobs (WB is Wilkes Bashford, a high-end clothier in San Francisco), and _7 a landscape for a client. Levi's was done with little sepia time, just to get the shirt and more selenium for everything else, WB was extreme bleach and fix (no sepia), then Selenium, which got the shadow/dark areas and strengthened the bleach/fix color, and the landscape was an easy balance, since its basically only two tonal areas...light (sepia) and dark (selenium). I can't remember what paper Levi's was done on...maybe Zone VI multi-contrast, but the other two were Ilford MG.

    Hope this helps.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Levi's.jpg
      Levi's.jpg
      File size:
      64.8 KB
      Views:
      98
    • WB.jpg
      WB.jpg
      File size:
      73.1 KB
      Views:
      89
    • _7.jpg
      _7.jpg
      File size:
      180.6 KB
      Views:
      98
  16. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Very nice samples you put Jfish. I can't use the bleach as you do with the Varycon, too warm and too fast.
    Your combo works beautifully with Ilford and Zone VI.
    Best,
    Guillaume
     
  17. bill schwab

    bill schwab Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    3,754
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Location:
    Meeshagin
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Wow... that IS fast. I tend to go even further with dilution - 1:9 allowing me even slower bleach times and more of an opportunity to build the tone to suit my taste. Even at that dilution it takes 2-3 minutes total bleach time with the cold-tone Ilford paper I use. I'm going to have to give the Varycon a try.

    I read in another thread that you were having trouble with batch consistancy with this paper. Has this changed at all?

    Thanks Guillaume.
     
  18. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Bill,
    The trouble was very acute with Lith ! One box was amazing, the next one was a pure nightmare. I had to find the same emulsion number to finish my series.
    But with a normal processing it shouldn't be a problem. Give a try it's a very nice paper. But Emak to my taste has more character.
    Confession of an Agfa addict... I need to give a try to Ilford !
    Take care,
    Guillaume
     
  19. eddie gunks

    eddie gunks Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Location:
    Saugerties,
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    thanks for the discussion! i really enjoyed it and learned a lot. i am going to try this and this thread really helps!

    cheers

    eddie
     
  20. jfish

    jfish Member

    Messages:
    76
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Thanks for the compliment.

    That dilution also works on, or did, Portregia, Ektalure, Forte, Bergger, and any other paper I printed on. Haven't tried Varycon, but it would seem that it should work. If you need to slow down your P. Ferri and P. Bromide formula, just add more Bromide. That dictates the speed of the action of the Ferri.

    Also, bleach, especially bleach with sepia, is gonna give you warm. There's not much you can do about that. Even the bleach/fix will do the same.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2008
  21. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,655
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I got some Ilford paper to try with.
    Here are the results with Varycon.

    Guillaume
     

    Attached Files:

  22. titrisol

    titrisol Member

    Messages:
    1,671
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    Rotterdam
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I would use a higher dilution of bleach, 1+9 or 1+14 so that times are in the 1 minute range (at least)
    You can also selectively bleach with brush, sponge or similar.
    The "stinker" is really awesome, the more you diluted the warmer the effect and the faster it acts, specially in the highlights. Since sulfide works from the hihglights to the shadows you can still get some good split with selenium.

    I don't know if you can tone without bleach in that toner... I was a big fan of Viradon (old) but found that the newer one also has some charm to it, being a polysulfide only toner.
     
  23. John Simmons

    John Simmons Member

    Messages:
    934
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Location:
    Michigan
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I use this paper extensively and the batch to batch consistency is not as good as Ilfords but ok. You'll need to make minor adjustments to print times with each new box. I have stopped trying to sepia tone this paper. Although the color and splits that can be achieved are stunningly beautiful, small dark blobs will form when the paper is put in the sepia toner after bleaching. This occurs on 50% or more of prints. I literally have to make 3-4 prints to get one blob free print after sepia toning.

    Regards,
    John