Stannous chloride foggant recipe

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Alessandro Serrao, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    I'm online from my basement, developing a roll of Agfa Apx100 as slide.
    I've used this foggant recipe:

    Part A (buffer):
    1000ml water
    16ml acetic acid 80%
    32g sodium acetate trihydrate

    Part B:
    1000ml water
    0,5g stannous chloride

    So far so good: the image is uniformly fogged. The problem is: the part A + part B after a while turns cloudy, especially after being used.
    Is it normal?
     
  2. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    1) I° developer: Fomatol P 1+0 + 4g/400ml hypo + 20ml Rollei RMB5;
    2) stop: 2% acetic acid;
    3) wash 5-10-20;
    4) bleach: 2g/1000ml potassium permanganate + 55g/1000ml sodium bisulfate;
    5) wash 5-10-20;
    6) clearing: 25g/1000ml potassium metabisulphite;
    7) wash 5-10-20;
    8) foggant: foggant recipe (acetic acid/acetate buffer) + 0,2g/400ml stannous chloride;
    9) wash 5-10-20;
    10) II° developer: D76 1+0 + 20g/1000ml sodium carbonate;
    11) wash 5-10-20;
    12) fixer 1+9;
    13) wash;
    14) selenium toner 1+20;


    temperature: 19°C
    1) 12min, 5 inversions every minute;
    2) 1min
    4) 5min 1 inversion every 15 seconds;
    6) 3min, 5 inversions every minute;
    8) 2min, 5 inversions every minute;
    10) 6min, 5 inversions every minute;
    12) 4min, 5 inversions every minute;
    14) 4min, 5 inversions every minute.
     
  3. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    With use, as acidity drops, it can become cloudy. A chelating agent would probably help.

    PE
     
  4. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Acidity drops mean that pH goes below the buffer pH?
    I've designed the buffer to have approx pH 4.6. Now the question is: how can the foggant bath go below pH 4.6?
    There's a buffer to prevent it...
    And the step before is water so there's not any alkaline or acidic carry-over...
     
  5. Photo Engineer

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    Well, SnCl2 can do this SnCl2 (aq) + H2O (l) is in equilibrium with Sn(OH)Cl (s) + HCl (aq) and this can cloud up. It can take place even in acid.

    Adding some ETDA should help.

    PE
     
  6. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Ok, got it.
    Another chemical powder on the buy list!
    :smile:)

    So, if I measure the pH after the bath has turned cloudy, I should get a reading below 4.6 right?
    Tomorrow I'll try.

    P.S.: glutaraldehyde works wonders!!!
     
  7. Photo Engineer

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    It might be 5.0 or higher by now, but the formation of the precipitate goes on, once started and in the absence of a chelating agent. That is the purpose of the other ingredients in the Kodak reversal bath. It prevents the precipitate from forming.

    PE
     
  8. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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  9. Photo Engineer

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    Very nice.

    PE
     
  10. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    There's something wrong with my pic above.
    Maybe too much hypo...
     
  11. Photo Engineer

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    Maybe the developers are not high enough in contrast. However, about 500 mg/L of Sodium Hypo is where I might start and work upwards. IDK what your level works out to.

    PE
     
  12. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Ok, I'll try lowering the hypo...
     
  13. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Ilford recommends from 8-12 grams/liter. What's up with that?
     
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  15. Photo Engineer

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    I said start there and work up! I cannot figure out from the data supplied what the actual current value used amounted to.

    The effect of hypo is generally at zero, blocked or dark highlights and excessive contrast. As you go up, contrast becomes normal and the highlights clear. The reasoning is that you must develop all of the silver necessary in the negative Dmax and without doing that, the reversal process will develop some and darken highlights in the transparency.

    You have to fiddle with it if you are starting from scratch.

    PE
     
  16. hrst

    hrst Member

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    As I've said before, using Ilford's recommendation of 8-12 g/l on Agfa APX100 resulted in complete removal of image when I tried it, while zero hypo worked. So I'd agree that 0.5 g/l would be a better starting point...
     
  17. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Infact I've just returned from my basement, where I've reversed another strip of Apx100. This time WITHOUT hypo, lengthening the first developer time to 15min (18°C). It works sufficiently well. I must say the highlights are somewhat foggy and the overall tone is on the warm side, light brown, as opposed to a cool tone of my first attempt.

    Summing up:
    1) 4g hypo/400ml and 12min/19°C f.d. --> cool tone, highlights clear but somewhat blown out;
    2) zero hypo and 15min/18°C f.d. ---> warm light brown tone, highlights a little on the foggy side but not blown out.

    Tomorrow I'll try adding as little hypo as I can (say 1g hypo/400ml).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2010
  18. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    The buffered stannous chloride solution gets cloudy only after being used.
     
  19. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    http://www.flickr.com/photos/54029037@N05/5096395976/

    This one's omitting entirely the hypo and the last selenium toner bath.
    As you can see the highlights are quite muddy but not blown out.Blacks are richer due to the abscence of hypo; surprisingly they aren't affected much by the selenium toner.
    The slide has an overall light brown cast not visible on this scan...

    Next: I'll try to put 500mg of hypo...
     
  20. vencahaus

    vencahaus Member

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    Hello!

    There is a lot of information and formulas on reversal processing spread on the Internet. Still, I miss a complete comprehensive guide to on the process which is tested and used by more then one photographer. There were some attempts to do that (some of them quite good) but it is still hard to adjust these processes for different films.

    I would love to have a "Process" with a list of films and developing/bleaching times and other info on results... or at least a guide how to perfectly adjust the process for each different film. I believe the info is all there but it would be great to put the pieces together and make a consistent resource for others.

    Who's in?

    In fact I wish more people would shoot b&w slides. I find it much more appropriate to many photographer's situation than negative/positive process.
     
  21. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Alessandro, this is a very illustrative of the effects of hypo. Thanks for your pragmatism and posting the scans as well. I'll be anxious to see where the happy median lies.

    I plan to cut my teeth soon on reversing 4x5", so this is great. I'm in.
     
  22. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    found here:

    posted as "Nameless formula" of fogging bath.
     
  23. Photo Engineer

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    That is essentially the Kodak E6 reversal bath.

    PE
     
  24. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    hmm ... is this solution will be more stable than bath with acetic acid + sodium acetate?

    as I can understand both formulas with stannous chloride need develop film after it use. mix stannous chloride with developer is impossible, because pH. but what do think if we mix something like next: Amidol + Ascobic acid + Sodium bisulphite + Stannous chloride ? some time ago I was try combination of Amidol + Ascobic acid + Sodium bisulphite as film developer with low pH (about 5-6) and its work
     
  25. Photo Engineer

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    I have no answer to your questions. Maybe someone else will have the answers for you.

    Sorry.

    PE
     
  26. spoolman

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    This is my 2 cents worth.When I was working for a pro lab here in Toronto in the mid-1970's we did E-3 process using light box reversal of the film after the hardener bath while the film was washing and before the colour dev.

    Wouldn't it be much simpler to build such a box of plexiglass or clear acrylic and put one light either side and wire them with a dimmer switch to vary the brightness.I think this would be a more repeatable method of reversing than to introduce another chemical into the environment and it would give more control over the reversing step.

    Doug:smile: