Synchro Compur 00 Compatibility With Other Shutters (Prontor, etc.)

Discussion in 'Camera Building, Repairs & Modification' started by Steve Smith, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    As some of you will know, I have a 65mm f8 Super Angulon which I have built into a 6x12 camera. The lens is in a Synchro Compur shutter. Schneider's data sheet suggests that it is fitted in a Copal shutter.

    A while ago, one of the shutter blades fell out and I haven't got round to having it repaired yet (I will). However, I noticed that if I stop it down a bit past f11, the gap in the shutter is masked by the aperture blades. I have been using it stopped down to at least f16 and have found no problems. I even tested it by pointing it at bright sunlight for a while with no problems. It works but is not ideal.

    Anyway, that's irrelevant to my question.

    My real question is: There are quite a few folding cameras which use what look to be similar size shutters. Is there a Prontor or similar shutter which will have the same 22.5mm diameter threads and the same spacing which I could get as an interim measure before I get my shutter repaired?


    Steve.
     
  2. edp

    edp Member

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    I have seen shutters in a range of sizes similar to 00, so if I were you I'd not part with any cash before seeing in person whether or not your lens fits the shutter.
     
  3. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    It seems to me that getting it fixed might be easier than transferring the cells to another shutter. If you need repair parts, there are a number of folders that use Synchro Compur 00 and most of the parts (cocking rack being one of the exceptions) probably will directly transfer to your shutter. A prime example is the Kodak Retina IIc and IIIc, both of which can be found affordably.
     
  4. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Getting it repaired is my intention, it's just that I always seem to find other things to spend my money on (or perhaps my wife keeps spending it for me!).

    I have an Ansco version of the Agfa Isolette III here and it looks like it has the same size shutter. I'm not going to take it apart though as it's in nearly new condition and was a gift from another APUG member.

    I might buy a simpler model of Isolette though if I can find a cheap one.


    Steve.
     
  5. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    I can't unscrew the front cells from the shutter on my 65mm f8 SA Compur #00 or I'd double check for you but they should fit. Just bought 6 shutters yesterday but the two small ones a Compur & a Prontor have mint Novar lens cells fitted.

    Other than a Compur there's the Vario - 3 speeds B, 25, 75 & 200, a Prontor-S B 1, 5, 10, 25, 50 & 100. I paid £2 for a new (unused) Vario last week postage was 2x that !!!!

    Ian
     
  6. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Does the Prontor look as if the threads are 22.5mm? The Prontor SV on my Ansco looks like it would do but I'm not going to take it apart. Just holding the SA rear element up to the back of the Prontor, it does look like it would fit. I can't tell from the front as it has the scale focusing ring on it.

    I am going to look for a cheap Isolette or something similar with bad bellows so I don't mind taking it apart.


    Steve.
     
  7. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

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    Steve, the big risk with taking a #00 from a folder is tube length. They're not all the same and SAs are sensitive to spacing. Measure carefully.

    I have the impression that post-WW II Compur 00s are pretty standard. So are Prontor Press #00s, remember that these are all post-war.

    I have a couple of lenses in Prontor #00, including a 47/5.6 SA that Schneider shipped in one. eBay #180812990726 has one with a 50/4 Comparon in it. I'd been thinking of bidding but don't really need another #00 so will stand aside and let others vie for it.
     
  8. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Yes. According to this: http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html there are a couple of spacing options with a 22.5mm opening.

    The Prontor 00 has the same 22.5mm threads and 16mm spacing. The Copal 00 is listed as 22.6mm threads but I'm sure this should be 22.5mm as this is the shutter suggested in Schneider's data sheet for this lens.


    Steve.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2012
  9. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    The Prontor and Vario #00 shutters I have are all identical spacing, one Prontor is pre-WWII the other and the Vario are post WWII with flash synch, I can't check the Compur as it's got all the gubbins for the parallax correction for a Super Ikonta on it.

    Dan makes a good point about the Super Angulon being more critical on it's spacing, I know Dean Jones in Australia (RazzleDog) found that spacings varied on 90mm f6.8 Angulons and that this affected the sharpness. So if you can measure the original Compur you could shim if necessary.

    Be aware that some of these #00 shutters have raised face plates and it's just possible may not allow a SA's front cell to screw in fully. (Have S1a service manual for you BTW).

    Ian
     
  10. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    GOOD NEWS: Thanks to this manual: http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/Compur-shutter-repair-manual.html posted in another thread, I managed to open up my shutter from the back and fit the blade back in place.

    BAD NEWS: All I need to do now is work out why the rest of it won't work any more.

    I think I might have slightly increased my quantity of spare parts!


    Steve.
     
  11. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    Well, that's the right manual. Congrats on getting as far as you have. Double check two things:

    1. The placement of all the tiny springs. They are very easy to get out of place.
    2. The faceplate and speed ring. Make shure they are installed properly and not binding any of the levers.

    So... what does the shutter do -- anything or nothing at all. And, were you able to determine why the shutter blade got dislodged in teh first place?
     
  12. paul ron

    paul ron Member

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    BTW Steve,
    If you go to the bottom of the opening page, click on the 2 links there.. you'll be very pleasingly surprised at all the info this site has to offer.

    Do some exploring, click on the side bar links as well, it'll blow you away.

    You may need a translator but the wealth of information is amazing, especially the lens theory sections.

    Enjoy!
     
  13. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Thanks. There is a lot of information there which I was not aware of.

    The issues I have at the moment are:

    1. When I put all of the shutter blades in place and fit the shutter mechanism back into the housing, they bind up. i.e. the actuating ring will not move. Two observations I made were that when I first took it apart, two of the three screws which hold it all together were loose. Also the shutter blade which fell out is larger than all the rest. I don't know if it should be or if someone has 'fixed' it before fitting a different blade and leaving the back a bit loose to stop it binding.
    When I assemble the blades, I put in the four smaller blades first then the large blade last. It cant go in earlier as the larger blade would cover the pin of the next blade. Four of the blade actuating pins have a recess, the fifth is plain so I assumed that the larger blade should go on that pin. I don't know for sure, I'm just applying some sort of logic to it.

    2. Although I think I have got all of the little springs back in place, with the blades removed again, The cocking lever does not latch in place. It just slips back again.

    3. I'm 99% sure that I am putting the shutter speed ring back correctly but there is a lever sticking up from the timing mechanism which prevents the ring from turning through more than half of its travel (unless forced slightly when the ring rides over it).

    My paln was to get it back working without the blades first but I am getting frustrated with it. At 10:00 last night I put it all in a box and put it away. By 11:00 my curiosity got the better of me and I was back putting it together again.

    I don't like to let a mechanical (or electronic) problem get the better of me (although the amount of 'spare parts' I now have might argue against this) so I really would like to get it working again.

    As I only paid £20 for the lens, even if I bough another 00 size shutter for it, it would still be considered a bargain. I just prefer to use what I have and leave spending money until the last resort!


    Steve.
     
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  15. paul ron

    paul ron Member

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    I haven't worked on an iris in a long time but I can tell you there is an order to putting em back in. Some have tips that area bent, those being hte first n last leaves to go in facing oppsing directions, some have larger n odd shaped leaves indicating another order. Trick is to find that order... look at the diagrams very closely for oddities.

    Lubricating LF shutters is also tricky. Some shutters have factory coatings that shouldn't be washed n others need the slightest amt of the lightest oil you can find or run completely dry.

    So play with it, be carefull n delicate n when you are feeling frustrated, jsut put her aside till tomorrow, answers come to you in dreams.

    That is an amzing site. I discovered it by accident n have been exploring for quite some time n each time I find something new.
    .
     
  16. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    I'm hoping not to lubricate or clean this one as it was working perfectly, although with a blade missing, before I started on it. Therefore, the main problem it has now is to do with the way I put it back together.

    I spent quite a while staring at the shutter blade pictures convincing myself that one was larger but I don't think they are - at least, it's not apparent omn the pictures.

    What I did notice today though is that where I placed the large blade last, obviously this is the one which does not overlap. however, there is a picture in the manual which shows all of one blade from the front - I have no idea how to do that from the rear. Perhaps I need more sleep!

    I did manage to fix the shutter on a Balda Super Baldix last week. It just needed a clean and lubrication which I applied very sparingly on the end of a thin piece of wire.

    I would happily take the front off of most shutters now and clean and lubricate them but I don't like separating the aperture bit from the shutter bit.

    I did this a few years ago when I grafted the front shutter part from an Isolette onto the rear aperture part of a Meopta Flexaret. I remember thinking it wasn't very funny the seventh time all of the shutter blades fell through the hole when putting the last one in place. It did work in the end though - and still does.


    Steve.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2012
  17. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Well, I think I'm going mad.

    There is no way that the shutter blade I have is the correct one. It just won't fit properly. I moved house a couple of years ago and lost track of where I put the dropped out shutter blade then found it again recently - or so I thought. However, if this isn't it, where is it? And more importantly, what did this larger one come out of?!!


    Steve.
     
  18. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    If your luck is like mine, it is in the bag of your vacuum cleaner (Hoover)... the bag you changed last year.
     
  19. paul ron

    paul ron Member

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    I have a time traveler guy come from the future to borrow tools n parts all the time. Ever drop someting right by your foot n can't find it no matter how hard you look?... future boy snatched it!

    Problem is he is suposed to put everything back exactly as he found it or risks messing the time continuem... well this bum has a lousey memory because I'm missing alot of stuff. I left notes, e-mailed him a few times and still nothing.

    Every so often I do find the lost itmes in places I'd never put it. Maybe it's me from the future with altzheimers? I'll catch him yet n break his neck... teach him some time continuem manners.

    :laugh: .
     
  20. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Yes. I once dropped a tiny screw and couldn't find it so I dropped another one to see where it went... and lost both of them.

    I know but it seemed like a good idea at the time!

    And I once watched my father preparing to re-assemble something. His action of clearing the workspace in front of him swept all of the tiny screws onto the floor.


    Steve
     
  21. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    No wonder I was having so much trouble. Today whilst re-(dis)organising my camera shelves, I found the actual missing shutter blade. I'm sure it will fit much better than the one I thought had come out! I will have another go at it soon.

    So where did that other blade come from?!!!


    Steve
     
  22. Old-N-Feeble

    Old-N-Feeble Member

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    Not to hijack your thread and an old one to boot but...

    I have four #00 shutters I'll be selling. Three are Synchro-Compur and one is a non-synch Prontor. They all work properly and range in cosmetic condtion from decent to excellent. All have blank aperture scales. A Compur would be the easiest fix for you since all you'd need to do is transfer your scale to the replacement. Oh... and they're all guaranteed to be #00.:wink:
     
  23. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Thanks but I got hold of another 00 shutter a couple of months ago!


    Steve.
     
  24. Old-N-Feeble

    Old-N-Feeble Member

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    Just thought I'd try here before posting them on the ol' internet flea market.:D
     
  25. Smudger

    Smudger Member

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    PM sent..
     
  26. Czaad

    Czaad Member

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    Hello Old-N-Feeble
    Do you still have spare Compur 00 shutters for sale?
    Thanks
    Czaad