Technical Pan in Rodinal - help!

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by NikoSperi, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. NikoSperi

    NikoSperi Member

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    Just tried Technical Pan in Rodinal - result: One less roll of TP at my disposal. Any experts out there to help?

    Here's the deal:
    TP exposed at 25 EI
    Rodinal 1:300 and 12 minutes as per one version of digital truth. (The other version says 30 minutes)

    Problem arises IMO because to develop one roll of 135 requires 300ml of soup in the tank. At 1:300 dilution, that's one milliliter of Rodinal. Agfa on old tech sheets said you needed 10ml per roll in your soup. However, at 1:300 dilution, that would require a tank that holds 3 liters!

    TP is a microfilm high contrast emulsion, and to get a continuous tone result, it appears you need to severely dilute the developer. But at 1ml:300ml for one roll, the results aren't thin, they're transparent!

    Has anybody done this before? Help!

    Is it about the absolute amount of developer? Do I need 3 liters of solution for one roll?
     
  2. roy

    roy Member

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    How was it ruined ? I have looked at some notes from a workshop I attended a few years ago given by a photographer who produced really nice results with Techpan. Because of the contrast element he used dilutions ranging from 1ml Rodinal to 75 or even 100ml water with vigorous agitation for 35mm film and times ranging from 3.5 to 4mins. He found it very water sensitive and on occasions used higher dilutions and even slower film speeds. One of those films you have to experiment with in different lighting conditions depending on what your photography is.
     
  3. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear NikoSperi,

    I have no help to give you, but I await with interest your final results.

    Neal Wydra
     
  4. NikoSperi

    NikoSperi Member

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    Ruined = severely underdeveloped. Even the exposed leader remains translucent and pale.
     
  5. NikoSperi

    NikoSperi Member

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    Freerider! :wink:
    I foresee two possible outcomes: a) I nail it and become the resident expert at extremely dilute dev't of discontinued films... or more likely b) I finish my limited stash of TechPan trying to get a half-decent result...
     
  6. Claire Senft

    Claire Senft Member

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    Try this.

    Here are two ideas that I have used that work.

    Mr. David Kachel recommends the following...This technique is known as SLIMT...selective latent image manipulation techniques if I remember correctly

    1. Soak your Tech pan in water and photo flo for several minutes for the most even development. I never bothered with this step myself.

    2. Soak your film for 4 to 5 minutes in a .2% potassium ferricyanide bleach.
    You can make this by putting 2 grams of PF into a liter of water. He further recommends 1/3 as much potaasium bromide as PF. I always used just the PF. These two ingredients are what is in Kodak's Sepia Toner. In case you do not have a scale: I do not know how much PF is in the pakage as I made my SLIMT from raw chemicals. I imagine someone else on Apug will tell you. If not Kodak will. If you have access to a metric scale you can weigh the ingredients; Otherwise you can make a stock solution from the entire kit and make your SLIMT with further dilution He recommends a delveloping time of 12 minutes for HC110B with normal agitation. I used to develop this in 1:50 Rodinal but no longer remember my time. If you find a film that lists both Rodinal and HC110b developing times, correlate that and develop a test strip first..say four frames. For instance if a regular pan film shows rodinal at 1:50 requiring 16 minutes and HC110b requiring 10 minutes then your test would be 16/10X12 minutes. This is capable of working easily and dependably with normal agitation once you have worked out your times.

    The very nicest method that I have used to develop Tech Pan comes from Hans Frederich. Develop the film in C-41 (Flexicolor) developer with convential B&W stop batn and fixer. For your first test develop for 10 minutes at 68ºF. I would lay my tank, with the lid on, on its side, rolling it slowly back and forth in a water bath. This provides Tech Pan negatives with wonderful gradation. You can try a film speed of 50. In my opinion this method beats the crap out of Technidol.

    A few thoughts about TP:
    TP is still available at about $75 for a bulk roll. A bulk roll is 150 feet long. this should provide approx. 27 36x rolls. TP can be frozen and have an
    exceptionally long life.

    TP negatives will tend to look underexposed compared to other films since it has such little base density. Do not be mislead.

    I imagine that you already realize that TP, with its extended red sensitivity,
    has unusual gradation...reds lighter than normal, blues and greens darker than normal. To have a normal appearance use a CC40 Cyan filter w/o any filter factor.

    As long as you have gone this far, use your camera with the mirror locked up on the mother of all tripods.

    Enjoy.
     
  7. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear Nikosperi,

    I admit it. I am a lazy fellow.<g> I am interested in hearing how TechPan fares in Rodinal as more of a general interest topic rather than acutal use. For TechPan I use C-41 developer (advised in an old issue of Photo Techniques). As a lazy fellow I waited for another more ambitious fellow I know to actually verify how well it worked. 10 minutes at 68°F for EI 25. Works great. I still have some Technidol, but I think that might be more fun to experiment with on other emulsions.<g>

    Good luck!

    Neal
     
  8. roy

    roy Member

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    At a 1:300 dilution, that is nowhere like 3 litres of water, that would be 1:3000,unless I have mistaken your posting. My 35mm developing tank is marked to hold less than 300 ml of liquid so, on that basis, it would get 3 ml of Rodinal as I can, in fact, squeeze the extra in.
     
  9. Woolliscroft

    Woolliscroft Member

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    Has Technidol also been discontinued? I have half a freezer full of Tech Pan, but only a few jars of Technidol.

    David.
     
  10. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    From what I understand, technidol will be around a while. Formulary has their own brand as well. Plus there are formulas in the "Cookbooks" for document films.
     
  11. Oldtimer Jay

    Oldtimer Jay Member

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    Hi,

    I have gotten very nice results with TP (for scenes of normal brightness range) exposing it @ ISO 25 and processing it in Rodinol 1-150 for 7 minutes @68 with 2 gentle inversions every 2 minutes.

    Jay
     
  12. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear David,

    I had heard that Kodak won't be making more technidol, but I shouldn't have implied that there will not be enough available. Also, as Jim stated, Photographer's Formulary has a note on their web site that they will continue to carry their version as long as there is demand. Fortunately for me, I only have two bulk rolls and about 10 individual rolls (all 35mm) around and I'm betting that C-41 will be available 'till I'm out.

    Neal Wydra
     
  13. modafoto

    modafoto Subscriber

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    You will nail it when you have 1 roll left :tongue:

    That's life
     
  14. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    Nico,

    As I recently mentioned in another thread, I tried several dilutions of Rodinal with 2.5 ml of concentrate in the tank and they mostly were able to develop one ISO 50 film... So, if you put 3 ml of Rodinal in a tank (with 297 ml of water) you'll probably be able to get something on your negs...
    There is a thing you have to consider though. When diluting a developer to a great degree, the alkalinity of the final solution will be lower (the development relies on the alkalinity of the solution...) and if the water you use for the dilution is slightly acid, then you'll be in big trouble... There's a threshold of alkalinity for the development to take place at all... You might have passed it...
    The water I use is checked to have PH 7, you should also run a test to make sure what kind of water you use... Otherwise, I would advise you to add an alkali to your solution to correct the PH.
    If you want to try other solutions, you can try two bath formulas, in order to control contrast. I've had sucess with Tetenal's Emofin diluted 2 times more than recommended.
    The C41 developer looks like a good option, too...
     
  15. ian_greant

    ian_greant Member

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  16. NikoSperi

    NikoSperi Member

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    Thx for that Ian, nice shot and courageous of you to shoot TP with those bright windows on the left! What sized film is it?

    I will try doubling both the concentrate to work at 1:150, and the amount of soup to work with 600ml per roll. That will give me 4ml to work on the silver... and hope the highlights don't go ballistic.

    Thanks everyone for the help! Will post results (if any)...
     
  17. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    Go easy on the agitation Niko, that helps in avoiding blown highlights.

    Ian says once every 2 minutes and that sounds about right.
     
  18. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Tech Pan in Rodinal

    Hi,

    I haven't used Tech Pan myself, but my father likes it, and I checked with him since he recently sent me some fine images from the Alsace region in France.

    He's developed in Rodinal 1+50 for 4.5min at 68*F with normal agitation. Exposed at EI 25.
    He granted me permission to post one of the images here so you can view the results.

    Hope that helps,

    - Thom
     
  19. Ornello

    Ornello Inactive

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    I don't think this is going to work. The dilution is too high. You may want to try diluting less and adding boric acid to reduce the activity of the developer.
     
  20. ian_greant

    ian_greant Member

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    Hi,

    Yes, the dynamic range was very wide but I found the high dilution worked very well at opening up the shadows and preserving the highlights. I shot it with my RolleiCord - so it's on a 6x6cm neg. Thanks for the compliment.

     
  21. NikoSperi

    NikoSperi Member

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    UPDATE:

    Ok, I tried two rolls of 120 TP, shot side by side with studio lighting - so no metering differences / light differences possible there. Both rolls shot at 25 EI, but one developed in Technidol (9' with shaker agitation every minute - classic instructions) and the other in Rodinal 1:150 (specifically 4:600, 7' with initial 30 sec agitation, and two gentle inversions at 5, 3 and 1 minutes)

    Two negatives scanned in the same pass to give equal exposure settings are here.

    Why am I nowhere even close to full development with the Rodinal? :sad:
     

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  22. ian_greant

    ian_greant Member

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    hmmmm I think you are just under-agitated with the Rodinal.
    I am pretty sure I used a standard agitation schedule with the 1:150 Rodinal Dilution to get good development with the seven minute time. (standard for me= five tank inversions each minute)

    Hope this helps,




     
  23. NikoSperi

    NikoSperi Member

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    Thx Ian. I guess I have become paranoid of blown highlight with over-agitated Rodinal, that coupled with paranoia surrounding TP means thin negs? Everyone seems ok with "2 gentle inversions every two minutes". I'll try one with the "standard" agitation regimen.
     
  24. ZnB

    ZnB Member

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    TP in Rodinal 1+300

    Hi, It's now Sep 23, 2008. Just in case some one is looking for TP developed in Rondinal info, here you have it. I have posted this info in some other places in the past few years.
    1. The myth of "enough soup" is not true. I used 1+300 dilution Specifically, 0.8 ml (exact) + 240ml water for 135 and 1.33 ml (exact) + 400 ml for 120. I used a small pipette with very high accuracy to measure my Rodinal and pure water - either distilled or RO water.
    2. Development time is 14.5 min 20C with about 10 turns for 1st 30 sec followed by 2 turns in 5 sec for every minute. I think this can be adjusted, may be less turns.
    3. The result is very close to Technidol.
    Here's an image with TP 120, taken with Planar 80/2.8
    Hope this helps.
     

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