The Nitrate Films Story revealed.

Discussion in 'Antiques and Collecting' started by Stephen Frizza, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

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    Just to update everyone, I had the rolls of films examined and their content date and location have been identified. They are of the Australian and American war effort in Buna north of Australia in New Guinea 1942/1943 against the Japanese.

    Six of the films are specific records detailing remains of the Japanese who perished in combat and also footage of those who did not perish being captured in conflict. The seventh roll half contains aerial surveillance of the location and ground filming of an airfield where there are stockpiles of bombs and other ammunition being transported by trucks to aircraft while the other half of the film is full of poor exposures of planes in they sky and bomb drops from the air though these unlike the rest of the films aren't exposed very well.

    The films are prints onto nitrate stock and not the original film that had been shot in camera. More research is needed to determine if this footage belongs to any archive and what rights I have to display their content.
     
  2. AgX

    AgX Member

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    So all those speculations of Japanese committing atrocities are wrong?
     
  3. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

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    i never speculated that.
     
  4. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    So, there isn't any on-camera footage of atrocities being committed? By-the-way, your website link from your profile doesn't work.
     
  5. Removed Account

    Removed Account Member

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    I think the speculations that AgX is referring to belonged to others, not yourself. Thanks for keeping us posted on the progress of this! It's a very interesting situation you've found yourself in.
     
  6. mike c

    mike c Subscriber

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    Well thats where,what,and a kinda muddy who and why, that going ok so far. Let us know how things unravel.or unreel.

    mike c.
     
  7. Kino

    Kino Member

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    So now is the speculation a problem when it was solicited in the beginning?

    I see; no good deed goes unpunished.

    good luck with that.:rolleyes:
     
  8. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    The speculation was all ours. Questions remain: were there live images depicting atrocious acts? If so, who was committing them? And upon whom?
     
  9. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

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    I think shooting people, blowing them to pieces or burying them but not completely is pretty atrocious but
    war is war its not meant to be nice
     
  10. tim_walls

    tim_walls Member

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    Stephen, I think there is a certain amount of confusion here because your two posts seem to disagree about what the films are of.

    Your original post said
    whereas now you say
    So I think what some people are curious to know is - which is it?

    Do the films record the atrocities being committed as the original post said ('having' their brains blown out, not 'who have had', and 'being gutted' rather than 'who have been gutted' being pretty clear statements that the film records the acts in progress,) or are they recordings of the aftermath as you say in this thread?

    Ignoring morbid curiosity, it also puts the whole thing into context and asks very different historical questions (like, if it's the former, what the bloody hell were the allies doing making such films!)
     
  11. Removed Account

    Removed Account Member

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    We know that both sides comitted attrocities; war is ugly no matter which side you're on. The attrocities committed by the Axis just happened to overshadow ours, not to mention that we won so we got to write the history books! Talk to some folks who have recently seen active service in the armed forces; if they trust you they'll tell you some pretty chilling stories about what some people on our side have done in the recent past. You need look no further than Guantanamo Bay.
     
  12. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

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    My apologies for being unclear the films contain a variety of footage showing killings by various methods done by Australian soldiers, footage of suicide in action (Japanese who shoot themselves) remains of people after brutal deaths and also activities being done to the deceased. They also Include footage of an air field and aerial surveillance and bomb dropping.

    the majority of the film i would say a good 80 percent is simply footage of dead bodies who have all been killed by violent means.
     
  13. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

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    I should also state these films seem to be a document of soldiers ability to kill enemy combatants.
     
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  15. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    This might be a good time for folks to reflect upon two things:

    1. Justin Silber's post
    and
    2. Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

    BTW... these seem to pre-date Australias' signing of that Convention, which I believe occured in 1952.
     
  16. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    This is a great question, but not just in the case of "the latter"... also in hte case of "the former." Perhaps we have some combat-experienced vets who would like to help the rest of us understand how/why war make some people do things that they would not otherwise even think of doing.
     
  17. Kino

    Kino Member

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    And I see no reason why this should turn into some form of hand-wringing, apologetic discussion because I guessed it might have been Japanese atrocity footage.

    If you wish to indulge in such, be my guest but I want no part of it.
     
  18. Urmas R.

    Urmas R. Member

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    Thank you for the update. It is very interesting.

    As we all know, the war crimes or crimes against humanity to not expire. Any kind of torture and causing of unnecessary suffering are punishable by law. In the European Union there are still several cases currently open against WWII criminals. These include for instance cases against former Soviet Union military officers. Soviet Union had not signed any convention as well, but this does not save them from court now (unless Russia refuses to give them out). Likewise, there are cases against former Nazi Germany officers or also against some leaders of African states.

    If the photos depict any act that could be interpreted as crime against humanity or war crime and if the person or military group is recognisable, then I see no reason why one cannot turn to the international court.
     
  19. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    I think this is why Steven Frizza has been advised by we ignorant folk to find the proper venue, disposition, and usage of these films.

    Regarding the origin of the films: they were made for military reasons. As documentation, perhaps. But of what?

    In the course of research, I have found it necessary to consult autopsy protocols from the battles on Bougainville in 1943-1944 which included photographs. These were considered necessary for better treatment of wounds.

    What could be the purpose in making some of these films. Bombing runs and effectiveness of same, obvious. But why the others.

    FWIW from someone trained as an historian, it is important that these films be turned over to such care that they will be preserved; and not destroyed or buried. Their usefulness must remain to be seen and only if the films, themselves, remain to be seen.
     
  20. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

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    Just to update everyone over the next few weeks I will be uploading images from the films to Flickr where they can be viewed. I Strongly warn that scenes in the film MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME VIEWERS but those withing to view scenes within the films can do so at the link attached. I will be uploading more scenes when i get available time to do so.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/29279649@N02/
     
  21. Moopheus

    Moopheus Member

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    Does that mean it is not determined if this is a copy of footage that already exists in an archive somewhere, or some film not previously known?
     
  22. HouTexDavid

    HouTexDavid Member

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    Justin,
    Do you have proof or can you point to some documentation of atrocities being committed at Guantanamo Bay?

    David
     
  23. Andrew O'Neill

    Andrew O'Neill Subscriber

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    I thought they looked Japanese...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  24. naaldvoerder

    naaldvoerder Member

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    Do you really need the proof????

    Jaap Jan
     
  25. Edwardv

    Edwardv Member

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    During the invasion of Okinawa the Marines took no prisoners. There was not a place to contained them and if let go them they would join their unit and continue to fight. And when you look at the situation the enemy was every where; no such thing as a front line.

    As for the film being nitrate, I would recommend cool storage and kept way from any flames or smokers unless you want to be a crispy critter.
     
  26. HouTexDavid

    HouTexDavid Member

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    I guess not... I heard that atrocities were committed by Jaap Jan. Do you really need the proof?!

    So, you see, allegations of atrocities, unsubstantiated by proof or documentation are just hearsay and rumor.

    (By the way, I didn't really hear that you committed atrocities, just wanted to make the point.)

    And, yes, if someone alleges that U.S. forces in Guantanamo Bay committed atrocities, I think that I would like to see some substantiation of those allegations. Otherwise, that "hearsay" denigrates the reputation of honorable service men and women.

    David