Time between mixing and using a fresh batch of XTOL?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Tom Kershaw, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

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    Any idea of how long to leave XTOL between mixing and using a fresh 5L batch? I've tended to leave the freshly mixed batch for a few hours in the past but not sure how long is sensible. Whereas I'm well aware D-76 should be left overnight before use. I use / will be using distilled water.

    Tom
     
  2. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Why would D-76 have to be left overnight other than to allow the mixing temperature to come down? Since XTOL can be mixed at lower temperatures this is even less of a consideration.
     
  3. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

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    I thought the activity of D-76 took a while a stabilise. I've not looked at this for a while, so may be incorrect; and should do some more research.

    Tom
     
  4. brian steinberger

    brian steinberger Subscriber

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    I've heard this rumor about D-76 as well. I have no idea if it's true or not. I use ID-11 and usually let it sit overnight before using.
     
  5. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    This is why I posted an article with links to Kodak and Ilford technical publications. Best to go to the source.

    Regarding D-76, the only comment Kodak makes is that when diluting it 1+1 if bubbles form you should let the solution stand for a few minutes to let bubbles dissipate.

    For ID-11 (same as D-76), Ilford says once it cools to the working temperature it is ready for use.

    Regarding XTOL, in fact Kodak makes a point of saying:

    • Convenient, room-temperature
    mixing for immediate use
     
  6. Truzi

    Truzi Subscriber

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    I've read a few posts where PE said D-76 is quite active when first mixed, and takes a while to settle down. I usually mix it the day before I use it.

    I've not yet tried XTOL, so haven't looked into it.
     
  7. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    I agree completely.
     
  8. Aron

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    Both PE and Ian Grant commented in the past that it's good practice to let D76/ID-11 sit for a day before use. IIRC Ian said it's good practice to let it sit at least until the next morning.

    I've found on the 22nd December, 2009 PE wrote the following on APUG in the thread "D-76, pH elevation with storage":

     
  9. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    When I have mixed D76, I bottle it in air tight containers and use when it has cooled, which may be several days or weeks later. Are you suggesting that when I mix it in a bucket I should leave this for 24 hours before storage to allow contact with air for this oxygen thingy?
     
  10. Truzi

    Truzi Subscriber

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    I think the reference is to the oxygen that was in already in the water, or introduced by mixing and pouring. Leaving it in an open bucket would give it an unlimited supply of oxygen and cause it to go bad sooner.

    I mix it in a plastic milk jug (using half the water). When it dissolves, I add the rest of the water to make the correct solution, mixing more as I go, and cap it air-tight. Then I let it sit at least a day before using.

    Once I first use it, I divide the remaining developer into 1-litre pop bottles, filled to the top, and capped air tight.
     
  11. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Cliveh - they are referring to dissolved Oxygen in the water.
     
  12. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    Then why would this take 24 hours?
     
  13. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    They are allowing some time for the dissolved Oxygen to be "used up". One has to keep in mind the amount of dissolved Oxygen is quite variable depending on whether the water is coming out of a tap strongly aerated vs out of a bottle etc. Further, there could be several mechanisms at work with dissolved Oxygen. This is why on balance, I would have to say anyone worrying about this is likely trying for some kind of tolerance well within the margin of error. If it were a problem of any materiality it would be addressed in the mixing instructions. Neither Kodak (D-76) nor Ilford (ID-11) indicate a stand period is necessary.

    I will also check Haist tonight as D-76 is an example given in the mixing chapter.
     
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  14. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    If you use it replenished, it doesn't matter. :smile: Just as an alternative.
     
  15. Aron

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    Again, PE (4/8/09):

     
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  16. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

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    When I was developing sensitometric film tests, I used both a freshly made up, and a two weeks old XTol. I did not see any discontinuity in the curves, but I have not done a direct comparison, I'm afraid. I'm curious to hear what others think.
     
  17. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

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    Rafal,

    I've not seen much in the way of density variation with XTOL which is one of the reasons I'm inclined towards it. I had too many unpleasant surprises when I previously used Pyrocat-HD a few years ago; partly related to unpredictable responses to oxidation I suspect.

    Tom
     
  18. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Well I checked Haist and he says nothing about letting photographic solutions, including D-76, stand after mixing other than to allow them to cool to working temperatures. So that's Haist, Kodak and Ilford. I'm convinced.

    Let's be clear on a few things here:

    1. OP is mixing XTOL which does not contain HQ

    2. We cannot compare the stability of mild-pH solvent developers such as XTOL and D-76 with that of low-sulfite staining formulas containing Pyro or Catechol.

    3. Concerning developers containing HQ (D-76 etc):

    a) Note PE says a tiny change due to the consumption of dissolved Oxygen and formation of HQMS in developers containing HQ. This is probably all within the margin of experimental error when developing film. Not sure what measurable effect if any this has at the working pH of fresh D-76.

    b) PE points out this depends on the amount of dissolved Oxygen present in the first place. OP says he's using distilled water, which to me means he's pouring it relatively gently from some vessel, not spraying it from a fire hose and then violently mixing it.
     
  19. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I let my developer solution "rest" overnight but the reason I do that is not the oxygen content or the Ph issue. With D76 and XTOL, right after mixing I see some undissolved particles floating around. I do not want them landing on film during processing and causing spots and uneven processing. In few hours, they will completely dissolve. So I mix, decanter into smaller bottles and seal, then 24 hours (or more) later, I use them for processing.
     
  20. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    I could be wrong, but I think PE's comments were in reference to using D76 in an environment where high levels of consistency and repeatability are absolutely necessary - such as film testing.
     
  21. glstr1263

    glstr1263 Member

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    I have used Xtol right after mixing and it works just fine.
     
  22. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    If you're worried about oxygen in the water, just boil it before using it to mix, and be gentle when mixing in the dry powder.