Tomiyama art camera

Discussion in 'Panoramic Cameras and Accessories' started by uraniumnitrate, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Hi!

    I wonder if you guys out there have or heard something about Tomiyama's art camera? I would like to know more about tham, like history of the maker Mr Tomiyama and some other things like how many of those had been produced between which year and specially of the 6x24 cm camera! As I understand it's a very unusual size and not many around! do any of you own one?

    Thanks!

    Uraniumnitrate
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2007
  2. kb244

    kb244 Member

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    They might have one at the store, I'll check when I go into work today in a couple hours.
     
  3. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Hi, Uranium.

    I can't help you anyway with historical facts about Tomiyama cameras, but I have one of those 6x24 beasts and I sure agree with you that it's a quite unusual format. The camera itself isn't quite inspiring and such a wide format poses some difficulties on composing since it lacks any kind of movements, except trail focusing. So using it at 6x17 format comes to be handy sometimes.
    Mine is an old camera and arrived with the usual 120mm Nikkor SW, wich happens to be a nice fit for my 5x7' D2. The camera will accept shorter lenses, although some may not fit inside it's narrow body. The 90/8 Nikkor SW, for instance, can't be used for just a couple milimeters.
    Ground-glass helps a lot when focusing other lenses than the 120mm, since for this one there's a scale on the knob wich drives the focusing rail. Maybe they had options available for other lenses, but for sure I don't expect to easily find one.
    All in all, I'm happy using it for differents tasks and I just regret it's weight and portability. I used to make some handheld shots with 6x17 Linhof, but not with this one!

    Cesar B.
     
  4. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Hello Cesar!

    Now, I wonder if it couldn't be a good camera on the streets as hand held for snop shuts! I beleive that nobody knows what you are taking pictures of and because it's so wide it could be some strange things happening in the corners. at least it's worth a try!

    Uraniumnitrate

    One more thing I forgot here! That is when you running around with 8x10 and larger cameras with thier holders, lenses, tripod than a "little" camera like this would like a felling of the butterfly sometimes! :smile::smile:
     
  5. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Well... once I made some pictures from a small rowboat, framing a nice view of my favorite beach in Rio. The least I can say is that it was quite funny. Trying to level the camera on board, even on a perfect day, with almost no wind or waves, was some kind of zen exercise. And you can get quite dizzy, believe me!
    Changing film and focusing on the ground glass also asked for some caution, but after all I managed to get a few useful frames.
    The camera is somewhat unconfortable while hand held, as you need both hands to hold it and a third one to turn the focusing knob and trip the shutter.
    But I won't discourage you from taking such a animal to the streets, just don't expect to get unnoticed!

    Cesar B.
     
  6. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Hello Cesar!

    Look here! I don’t know why you had to bother with that focusing knob at all? Have you 2 some kind of intimate relation with each other?:smile: I don’t have any user’s manual for this thing but I thought that this focusing knob where a bogus from the beginning!
    By the way if you have any user's manual I would like you to copy for me! would you?

    Now; I have a Schneider 121mm Super Angulon which gives you a ruff 100 degree and this lens is on f16 have a dept of field like 5 m to infinity, on f22 3.53m to infinity, on f32 2.55m to infinity and on f45 1.96m to infinity.

    Now if I’m not wrong than the simple rules of the dept of field is that 1/3 are the front of your object and 2/3 is behind it.

    So what you do? Go up some high place a building or something and look ahead and choose something very far your horizon and try to estimate something which is 2/3 in a front of it! Than you focus there! When it’s done you mark this position on your focusing knob and here you are! The camera is calibrated to your lens! Your dept of field table should work here! That means your image should be sharp on f 22 from 3.53 metres to infinity!!!!!
    So what you got really is the big big instamatic camera with fixed focus!!!!!
    Now on 400 ASA or higher this should be enough light to keep you going on a bright day at the speed of 125 on the street even with f 32!
    This of course aloud you to have the camera on your shoulder with your triger coked, film wind and just pick it up when you got that image! This of course makes you a little bit more discrete and on the steets, you must move fast anyway as things changing fast than you don't had to bother with any of that focusing thing!!

    Cesar, correct me if I’m wrong!!! As I don't have anyone to talk to when it's come to this baby! funny I called baby and you called animal! It must be so that beloved child have many names! :smile:

    The first image is a contact print from the negative and the second one is one detail from it! This images only for test purposes nothing else so don't garge my artistic talent on those! I haven't made any enlargment yet of those test negatives but will do some lather!

    Now the trees where 3 metres from me and that house something like one kilometres and those trees on the horizon well, I don't know!

    Now of course the wide size makes it difficult to compose your image thats for shure but if you think there is a lot's of applications this will feet in!
    The only problem I have that I don't know how the hell I can feet in a longer lens! I tryed with my symmar 300 but the inside of the camera would not aloud me because that little window masking my neg when the bellows drown out 300 mm! any tip you can give me as I feel somethimes that a longer lens would be nice somethimes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2007
  7. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Hi, Uranium.

    Believe me or not, I was using both the Nikkor 120mm and Schneider 75mm, alternating 6x24 and 6x17 formats. To use the second lens, I took off the stopper wich sets infinity mark and so all markings in the knob came to be useless. I made myself a side rule with markings for both lens, but it i so crude yet that I can't trust at all. And to make things even a little more difficult I used TMX 100 and 160 ISO color film. Of course, I like to use filters for B&W and as the boat would never accept the idea of being steady, you can imagine that I was very far from using f 22.
    I would also like to use bigger lenses and that's one of the motives I don't feel quite in love about this camera, but here in Brasil those beasts don't show up very often so I'll sure have to wait a long time until I find something better.
     
  8. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Cesar!

    I been out with this baby a couple of days and I think Im' gonna like it! Took some picture of industrial landscapes!
    can yuoiput up something you did with this you call animal?
    By the way you talking about boats all the time! It seem that you living on water! Do you?

    Uraniumnitrate!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2006
  9. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Well, not exactly living on water, but as much near the sea as I can.
    I did mention this boat story just because it's the only situation where I really need to shoot hand held panoramics.
    I haven't much to show via internet, but some of my work about Rio de Janeiro can be seen on www.pequenagaleria18.com.br. If you have the time... be my guest!

    Cesar B.
     
  10. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    I been inside and looked the images but anytime I wanted to enlarge one of those than nothing hapend. It's says that loading but efter a half an hour you don't try it any longer! Some of those of your work are very nice!!!! What kind of lens you have on the camera now? The Schneider and the Nikon? Well how long you had this camera?
    Uraniumnitrate
     
  11. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Hi, Uranium.

    Sorry, I didn't know there was a bug on the site, but I've checked myself and noticed that the portuguese option is working fine.
    My first panoramic camera was an old 6x17 Linhof, with fixed 90/8 Super-angulon, and it was replaced by the Art-panorama about 3 years ago. Only two of my lenses fits this camera, the SW Nikkor 120/8 and Super-angulon 75/5.6, but of course the last one will just cover (not without severe fall-off) the 6x17 format.
    I also bought a 18x24cm Meteor enlarger, so I could print 6x24 negatives, but so far it's lying on the floor waiting to be re-assembled and adapted to my preferences. And I have to confess there are great chances I can't remember anymore how to fit all those pieces together. It's a huge condenser enlarger, pretty old, with head, focus and table geared moved, but it came with a silly wood negative holder, wich could at best be used as a tray on the kitchen. Maybe I could adapt a durst holder, but first I should find one at a reasonable price and that ain't so easy, you know. Buying a scanner seems to be the best solution on the near future and that's what I'm heading to.

    Cesar B.
     
  12. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Okay so you have a big enlarger? Not bad at all! And to get it together well, one thing gives another! So if when you think you are finished and one screw lie on the floor than you failed!!!

    Now about the scanner! Dou you plan to scan the negative and printed in a printer for exhibition or to sell? Or just for the net? What I’m planning to do once I have plenty of negs to do some duplicate and do some Gum from them.

    Now I begin to understand what do you told me about composing your image! It’s difficult! Need a lot’s of attention and primary learning to think panorama. Not only that, the psychological process to learn to use it out of the landscape like in cities and everywhere! Try to make the camera to an all around thing! I think it’s worth it as this is a really special thing.

    I brought this from an English gent and he only use it for group photos and made a living out of it because the special size of this! He sends me a photo of the whole school it was about 500 people on that picture!!

    One little other thing! Lens hood I failed with as I have tried everything now but no sir nothing works. Have you any ideas how and what can be use to this as my Schneider is a 120 degree lens! Filter I have find a set red yellow and green. The green is what I never going to use but yellow had been a standard now days.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2007
  13. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Maybe composing with panoramic format just come to be some kind of tricky art due to the fact that wide formats already seems to be so dynamic by itself. It's so easy to get lost with so much room to our sides! And keeping some sort of equilibrium while captiving the reader's eyes to where we want them to look at, those are in my opinion the major tasks to be faced.

    It's possible to scan those long negatives on Nikon 9000, stichting the peaces later on PS, but it isn't the funniest thing to do. Actually, I've just made one with almost 3m wide, supposed to be printed on Lambda, but I haven't seem the result and probably will never see as it was sent some thousand kilometers away from home. My future plans head to printing on high-end ink-jets, nice papers and inks, for exhibition and selling altogheter.

    I once made a prototype lens hood for the 6x17 Linhof, wich lens suffered badly from flare, and consisted of four flat panels hinged by black cloth, closed on the end by velcro tape. To support them I used a Lee filter stand wich happened to be just the right size to fit around de 90/8 SA lens. The long panels where almost at square angle to lens axis, while the small lateral boards showed much steeper angles. The nice feature about this hood is that it could be disassembled to travel on back-pack. Once mounted it was so huge and fragile to go anywhere.
     
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  15. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Soon Cesar I'm going to have a lot's of information of Tomiyama as a Japanese guy had been contacted me and he will talk to the former sales chef at Tomiyama as he stated that he know him very well. So we gonna get some history.

    I think you right! We got so much space on our sides that we can get lost and it's difficult to focus attention to what we wanna say with our image!
    But I still think that is the mental state wich we got to work in ourself to actually work with this camera with out any problem.

    My idea is really totaly different use of this camera as it's intend to use for. Not panorama but a extreme wide angle camera for all purpose which is going to made this different and poverfull once I learned how to express myself with it!

    I mean if this is done than we going to create images as out of this world! The basics are there and I like that I have this big instamatic camera! The ideal that my lens has a dept of field just from a couple metre to infinity opens new doors! I have ordered 400 film and when it gets here I will try this on people and in the streets! lather in the autumn I will take some time of to London and would try this there!

    Can you put up any pics on that lens shade you talking about? By the way, do you have any strap to the camera because I dont have it came with out it and I just can't figured out if the Mamiyas or the pentax or any other would feet! I'm shure that is coming from somaeother Japanese camera! Because I must have something to carry around while I'm in the streets!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2006
  16. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Unfortunately, the lens shade went away with the camera, so I have no pictures. Maybe I should grant a patent on the idea and sell the rights to Linhof, since their salesperson in USA once told me in the LF forum that it could never be done. Nice fella, he is...
    But, anyway, it's not so difficult to imagine and build something to make this trick. What seems to be an issue is the fact that one probably should make a different piece for each lens. That's what keeps me thinking twice before I start, since I'm already looking for a third lens.
    About the strap, I confess never cared about it since I couldn't even imagine carrying this baby-monster around my neck. But right now, as you mentioned this, I found an old strap wich fits perfectly, although I'm not sure where it came from. Suppose it was from a 6x7 Mamiya I once had long ago.
    So, I got thank you for that!
     
  17. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Cesar! Listen to this! Just find out a couple hours ago! The old Angulon (not the super angulon) 6.8/165 mm cover 18x24 cm at f22 with an image circles 300mm! It's not that intresting but this lens works around 80 degree! Which is a longer lens and a 165 mm will not intefere with the cameras inside constraction! At least that's what I think but you know what they say nothing is sure in this world! It's a 40 degree down in my case!
    I think yours is a 105 on f22 so it's not much there but I mobilise every one I know to think!!! :smile:

    Our sollution could be some short process lens with a hudge coveredge as they work around 45-50 degree! It's just find a right one which can be fitted into shutter and are around 120 up to a 160 mm! Look around!!!

    It seem that a lots of people reading this but nobody stepped in yet so it is a unsusul camera! I mean this site is worldwide isn't it?
     
  18. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Hi!
    I did reply before but it seems it vanished somewhere in the net.
    I'm not so sure a 165mm lens will be useful, since the 120mm lens for itself uses a fairy long extended board and using it would make the first lens barely focus at infinity. A longer board could be troubleful for inducing mechanical vignetting.
    Maybe we are looking for something quite unusual, I mean a tele-wide-angle-lens.
    Have you ever heard about it?
     
  19. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Hello cesar!

    :D :D No I haven't but I'm gonna find one!!!
    Just one question. You talking about focusing with a 120mm lens, why you bother with that? why don't you work with the dept of field? you need only a 120mm from the lens to the filmplane than you have sharpness in infinity! Don't you? I'm going to make a ruff drowing to show what I mean and post it lather!
     
  20. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    My 121mm Schneider SA works like this! First I focus on infinity and than I estimate something which is a 2/3 from infinity toward me than I focus there! I never use the smallest aperture of some reasons but f32 works fine!
    Now, my Schneider gives me a sharp image between 2.45 m to infinity. I marked the focusing knob there and just check time to time if it’s still there! :smile::smile: Of course on f45 it would be even closer like 1.95 m but it’s not healthy to use that.

    In this case I have a fast f stop and just adjust the exposure time. The only time I had to focus is when I would do closer picture but with this camera size would be meaningless! That’s why I call this one for a big instamatic camera!

    What I'm doing now is manufacture a little thing to reposition the shutter cable relise, more to feet for street use! As it is now it's not very good! You got to hold the camera with both hand! If I come up with something usefull you gonna get the drowing to could do the same!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2007
  21. europanorama

    europanorama Member

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    i tested the 612-version with mamyia-press-mount. it is of a bad make. we could even not correct/repair film-flatness good enough. you will never get 100% perfectly sharp images.
    my repairman-the one who also repaired my widelux 1500(BTW FROM ADORAMA/PANON-camera 1 had to be exchanged by the latter...without success)- has made a shiftadapter for tomiyama 617.
     
  22. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Now I don't think I got you right here! The Tomiyama I have is entirelly the make of the Tomiyama and there is isn't any Mamiya or anything else for that matter are involved in this one! I don't have a problem with film flatness Not anything I detected anyway!

    I got only two or three problems with this camera!

    First the composing of the image is difficult as this camera really gives a lot more somethimes you need it's wide like hell!

    Second I don't know how to or what kind of lenshade should I use not to get any vignetting on the final exposed negative!

    Third is the position of the shutter cable reliese. It's not made to use this camera on free hand only on tripod! now I want to use this on the street with high speed film like 400 asa than in order to hold a camera stable and operate the shutter reliese at the same time is the problem but I'm working on it! I got a pretty god idea how and what should I must do to get it right! I have this ready but I don't know how to attach it to the camera body.

    The above mentioned is a problem and a rather big one as I never operate any of my cameras with out lens shade. So those things waiting for a sollutoin!
    The negs I got are perfect! As a large format man I have allways trouble with film flatness this thing is goes hand by hand larger neg more problem. The real problem is the 20x25 negs intend to get a belly! :smile:

    Cesar if you read this can you give your idea of film flatness in your baby? is that any problem there? Mine is works fine as I never detected anything yet!
     
  23. europanorama

    europanorama Member

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    there is only one tomiyama 612-the one with mamiya-press-mount. the ones you and i are referring are the tomiyamas 617(612-option) and 624(possibly 612 and 617-option). i have no access to the prospectus but i think there is a 617/612-back-version too.
     
  24. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    What I have is the 6x24 cm and it's uses a large format lenses with a shutter! I never seen any of those others and I don't know and what they using nor how they work!

    There was a Japanese guy wrote me and he told me He was a sales manager at Tomiyama or he know him and get me more info about the cameras but he never wrote again!

    To tell you the thruth I don't really care of those others however more real info would be nice! I got this one and its works fine! Those problems I mentioned I will fix it in the near future! I use the camera and it's giving me sharp images that is fine and it is as it should be!

    Of course if I got more info somehow I would publish those here! But nothing hapend yet!

    By the way what do you mean by Mamiya press mount? No optics I know of Mamiya Universsal press manage to cover that circle! 6x12 it's almost twice as mamiyas largest back the 6x9!! Mamiya press optics cover some like 6x9 at it's largest! I don't beleive they usefull for larger format as 6x12! Maybe but not larger or with out vignetting
     
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  25. europanorama

    europanorama Member

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    since that 6x9 must cover also polaroid packfilm(the smaller one) i can confirm that the 127mm can cover completely 6x12. and its very sharp. 75mm looks a bit assymmetric. but i dont remember how much it covers. pls forget that camera. from image the image sharpness could change due to the fact that film is not tight enough. my repairman improved the pull but could not open that stupid spool-holding mechanism. body could be destroyed. under changing climate flatness would easy change. there are tomyiama-sites on the net. i dont know them anymore.
    i would have a look at the new chinese designs. i would prefer a module-system 4x5-camera with shift and changing back.
     
  26. cesarb

    cesarb Subscriber

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    Well, I'd would also welcome a better design than Art 6x24 camera and if I could afford so, Gilde camera would do nicely on my hands. I don't care so much about film flatness with this camera, since my main concern come to be the lens standard, wich in my case often doesn't look rather parallel to the body. When doing verticals, it sure gets awfully tilted downwards. If you're doing some garden pictures, it's ok and may be useful as an auto-scheimpflug correction, although I'd rather live without this confort.