Toner comparable to Viradon?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by VoidoidRamone, Oct 23, 2004.

  1. VoidoidRamone

    VoidoidRamone Subscriber

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    I just tried to order some Viradon from Freestyle... but they are out. What, if any, would be a good substitute for this? I'm not very familiar with a bunch of different kinds of toners, but I am fond of the look of Viradon. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks -Grant
     
  2. blansky

    blansky Subscriber

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    A process that produces a nice warm brown is Zonal Pro warmtone developer, with Ilford FB Warmtone paper and then selenium toning afterwards.


    MIchael
     
  3. VoidoidRamone

    VoidoidRamone Subscriber

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    okay, I'll have to try that sometime. Thanks -Grant
     
  4. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    kodak brown toner is almost identical
     
  5. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    TONER

    Mr. Ramone-here is a cloned formula for Kodak Polytoner;now discontinued.
    Selenium17ml
    Brown Toner 75ml
    Kodalk 30g
    H2O 1,000 ml
    You must use HCA before and after the toner. Be sure to keep the temp. around 70degrees. I've gotten some really nice effects with the Bergger papers and Agfa. Good luck- sometimes it works and then...Solution will keep but tends to fall out of sokution after a while. May have to do with temperature.
    Peter
     
  6. VoidoidRamone

    VoidoidRamone Subscriber

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    Okay, thanks for the ideas everyone. Luckily I did notice that I do still have one more bottle of Viradon left, so... But I am anxious to keep trying different toners and the like. Thanks -Grant
     
  7. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    A question for everyone.
    Roman, Ann and myself were discussing the preparation of sulfid toners using Liver of Sulfur.

    Has anyone used Na-Sulfide instead of Liver of Sulfur?
    I guess it can replace Liver of Sulfur in a 1:4 basis
     
  8. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Liver of sulfur is a polysulfide. It can be replaced with sodium polysulfide.

    Oh all right - sodium sulfide or dosulfide will also work in a toner. But differently.

    "Old" Viradon was a polysulfide/selenium toner, the only one on the market at present may be Moersch' Carbontoner. As least it seems to have similar properties.

    "New" Viradon is sulfide only. Kodak Brown toner is a very good substitute, as are several others.

    I shall miss "old Viradon" when I have used the last of my bottle. Hopefully it won't be for a long time yet.
     
  9. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    Liver of sulfur is:
    K-polysulfide 25%
    K-thiosulfate 75%
    according to the JTBaker-MSDS

    Sodium polysulphide.. that sounds like a good idea:
    Found this:
    http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/rubber.htm

    Roman, it seems easier than melting sulfur and KOH
     
  10. Blighty

    Blighty Subscriber

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    Does new Viradon pong as bad as the old Viradon? BLIGHTY
     
  11. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    Can sepia toner be used without the bleach?
    Will that be equivalent to polysulfide toners?
     
  12. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    This is an interesting suggestion, titrisol, and next time we have some sepia set up for toning will get it a try. Am quessing it will not be the same, but then that is a quess as i am not a chemist.

    There is a technique called pre-sulphiding where one tones the print befoe the bleaching process, then re-developed after the bleach.

    With the sepia toner , the color of the print is going to depend on the amount of additivor that is used in the toning bath, which is a bit different than with the polysufide toners.

    Someone with more chemical knowelge will have to address the sameness or differences, perhaps, Ole will help out here.
     
  13. skahde

    skahde Member

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    Moersch Carbontoner is Sodiumsulfide/Selenium. Look up "Agfa 516" which shouldn't be to much different. In some old books such combination toners were referred to as "the" selenium toner. Colour and effect are markedly different from Potassiumpolysulfide toners like the brew cited above based on liver of sulfur + KRST.

    @VoidoidRamone: Are you asking for a replacement for new or old Viradon?
     
  14. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

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    AFAIK, Not the straight sulphide. One needs the silver in the paper halogenated to have it uptake the sulphur. Use of bromides with the bleach make the silver able to grab the Sulphur from the solution.
     
  15. skahde

    skahde Member

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    Expect a different colour and a very slow process.
     
  16. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Sepia toning is a sulfideing of the silver. A bleach is not needed.
    The Hypo-Alums, Nelson's Gold Toner, Kodak's and Agfa's
    polysulfide are all direct toners; no bleach.

    Ann has mentioned the IPI in connection with toning. The IPI,
    the Image Permanence Institute at RIT, concerns itself primarily
    with microfilm which has some relavance to B&W prints. At
    least to read it does.

    As for sulfide, they are all for it. The surprise was in how little
    it takes. A most minute amount will do. Sodium sulfide at a dilution
    of 1:9,999, or .01%, will impart complete protection. There is no
    reason not to use sodium sulfide from there perspective other
    than matters of S&h of, 55 gallon drums?

    As for oder, I detect none from low percentage solutions. Dan
     
  17. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    I mention this because Kodak Brown Toner is not available in 1 gallon jugs anymore. And according to a chat we had with Ann, rjr, and some others we were looking for an alternative..... liver of sulfur price has gone up a lot.

     
  18. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    My packet of Kodak Sepia lists sodium sulfide as
    the redeveloper's only ingredient.

    IIRC, I've read that sodium sulfite is used as a 'stop' bath
    after toning with polysulfide. Sodium polysulfide is made by
    dissolving sulfur in sodium sulfide. Sodium thiosulfate, fixer,
    is made by dissolving sulfur in sodium sulfite. It would
    seem the sulfite has a greater affinity for sulfur and
    for that reason used as a 'stop'.

    The IPI has stated that sodium sulfide at high dilutions is
    entirely adequate. Dan