Toning for permanence

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Blighty, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. Blighty

    Blighty Subscriber

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    I'm going to selenium tone some Prints made on Forte Polywarmtone FB. I am keen not to change the image colour (or as little as possible). Kodak says their KRST can be used at dilutions of 1+20 ~1+40, to improve permanence without the colour change. Is this correct? I have found Forte polywarm to be quite sensitive to selenium toning, and was wondering if even higher dilutions could be used. I have read (somewhere) of people diluting as much as 1+120!! Would a better alternative be to use Agfa Sistan? What does the forum think? Many thanks, BLIGHTY.
     
  2. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    Selenium toning (according to Rudman) only offers protection at strong dilutions, and when the prints are toned to almost completion. With Forte that means a very strong color change.
    Same with Viradon

    I have not used sistan, so I can't tell yu wheter it works or not
     
  3. Lee Shively

    Lee Shively Member

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    I'm not always keen on the reddish brown of selenium either. I usually use it only to add some depth to prints and pull them before they fully tone. The problem, as previously stated, is that full protection is not achieved without fully toning them. I've not tried Sistan either but it could be a good alternative. There is also Gold Protective toner. I'm not sure about color changes in the paper with this either and it's pretty expensive. Both Kodak Brown toner and Nelson Gold toner are archival and I like their colors better than selenium. I especially like Forte in Nelson Gold but it's a long process of 10-20 minutes in a hot solution.
     
  4. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    What color shift do you get in Nelson's? Bluish grays?
     
  5. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    the following information comes from IPI (Image Permanence Institute) and from Tim Rudman's book "Toning Book" . Check Archival permanence in that book if you wish.

    The following is a quote from IPI "Selenium and gold toning only provided protection in proportion to the conversion that take (s) place, and even at high levels of toning protection was incomplete.

    Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner gave very little protection to the highlights and mid tones when used in high dilutions, as is often recommended for archival toning."

    (my comment: remember selenium works from the shadows up; gold from the highlights down)

    Tim Rudmen"s quote "Advice that selenium toning at high dilutions of 1:20 or more will give good image protection without colour shift should no longer be followed. Toning for permancence should be at 1:9 or stronger for at least three minutes at 68 and colour change on these papers is usually inevitable, if reasonably full protection is to be achieved. "
    Tim goes on to indicate that a Sistan treatment may help with additional protection, but "I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY HARD DATA ON THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS COMBINATION".

    Some where in the files i have some information about the IPI findings, but can't put my finger on this right now , but a little voice is reminding that at high dilutions ratios the time was something like 8 minutes for completion and with most papers you will get a color shift.

    Last year we ran a lot of test ( and continue to do so, *got behind*:wink: ) on various papers with various toners. The most resistent to color shift was Luminous Fiber cold tone paper. In a selenium ratio of 1"15 after 10 minutes there was a slight shift in Dmax but no color shift. Now this is just our experience with our equipment, etc. this was not a scientific study under controlled conditions.

    This is one reason i have been playing with Les"s extending toning treatments (that is not his term, but mine). One hour in 1:10 Seleium, Oriental Seagull graded paper at which time there is occurs a color shift some where between 8 to 10 minutes, and can still be seen after 1 hour altho less so, and then after 90 minutes in gold the color has completely disappeared with increase in dmax and a different sense of dimenison.

    Oh yes one other statement that comes from IPI. With regard to the effectiveness in terms of archival protection. This is the list in descending order:
    Polysulphides
    selenium'
    gold
    platinum
    "this assumes full toning".

    hope this is helpful.
     
  6. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    oh, by the way, there has been a discussion going on about seleinum and sistan over on the "new Pure-silver- board if anyone wants to sign up and check out discussion. Some very "heavy Hitters" chimming in.,
     
  7. JackRosa

    JackRosa Member

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    I use dilutions of 1:9 but at 75 degrees F (versus 68 degree F).
     
  8. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    titrsol;
    Our experience with Nelson's gold lends more to tan, browns. not blue grays. Don't let the Gold in the formula mis lead you. Basic gold formula will give better blue cast.

    We do a lot of split toning with Nelson's gold and depending on the paper the results are wonderful, if that is what you are looking for. To compeletion is more tan, especially with warmtone papers.
     
  9. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    I haven't used gold yet... and rememebered your post a few days back about it, so just wondering
     
  10. Lee Shively

    Lee Shively Member

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    I really like the way Forte Polywarmtone Plus and Ilford Warmtone respond to Nelson gold. As Ann said, the color shift is to tan and light brown. I don't have a lot of experience with it but it's a more pleasing look than selenium or brown toner, in my opinion.
     
  11. photomc

    photomc Member

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    Ann, could you PM me the location of this board...
     
  12. blansky

    blansky Subscriber

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    As I've stated here a lot of times, if you use Ilford FB Warmtone in Zonal Pro Warmtone Developer and then selenium tone afterwards you will get a warm brown tone instead of the usual eggplant purple/brown color.

    This might suit people more than what they are getting now with selenium.


    Michael
     
  13. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I've read that Nelson's will work at room temperature; 60 minutes
    and I'd suppose a now and then agitation. The reason it will tone
    at such a low temperature I think is because the little gold
    included acts as a catalyst.

    Nelson's Gold Toner is the least costly of all toners save perhaps
    for the hypo-alum toners. Also it provides sulfide protection.

    Photographer's Formulary has all the ingredients. Dan
     
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  15. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    Have to second Michaels thoughts about the Zonal pro developer. The developer type and in fact the type of fixer will influence the toning process.
     
  16. photomc

    photomc Member

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    Will give Michaels thoughts a Third agreement..also, as strange as it may sound, Rodinal 1:20 with a Ilford WT will also tone very well with Viradon. Prints look more like they were developed in Edwal Plt developer which gives a nice warm tone also. Some where, here or some where else, is formula for the old Viradon, which is a blend of Viradon and KRST much like the Kodak polytoner I think. Combo of Viradon, KRST and Agfa MC111 will also yield a nice tone.
     
  17. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    I have the formula ; or rather several , that are suppose to be similar to the old polytoner if people like i will post them.
     
  18. Leon

    Leon Member

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    Ilford MGFB wt developing in neutol 1:10 at 20 deg , KRST at 1:10 20 deg to about 1/2 way up the tonal range, then bleaching back to about the midtones, redeveloping in bromophen 1:14 at 20 deg and finally KRST to completion gives a very rich chocolatey-neutral colour to the lighter mids - highlights and a velvety plummy black to the sadows, which is much to my taste.

    I've also tried same paper using the neutol at first same dilution, bleaching back to shadows, then redeveloping in the neutol which gives a suprisingly cold-blue tint, then selenium 1:5 to completion gives an only slightly brown hint to the tones, and again is very pleasant.
     
  19. Deckled Edge

    Deckled Edge Member

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    I for one would like that info. I am a published fan of Polytoner, and am using up my last bottle 1/50th at a time. Unless someone finds an abandoned store room full and floods e-Bay, I'll have to mix my own.
     
  20. oriecat

    oriecat Member

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    What would you guys recommend as a good starting toner for someone who hasn't started doing it yet, but wants to...
     
  21. argentic

    argentic Member

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    Yes please. Maybe in the "Chemistry Recipes" section?
     
  22. Leon

    Leon Member

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    I started with a thiocarbamide type sepia toner. It is a bit fiddly in that you have to use two baths, a bleach bath then a re-development/ toning bath but it is quite a versatile method with lots of different variations acheivable depending on dilutions and times/ temps. So if you want variety, try that , if you want more easily controllable and steady results, pehaps try a selenium toner.

    I would definitely reccommend reading Tim Rudmans toning book though to get a taste for what is possible, it is excellent. Ann put me on to it and it has opened up a new world for my prints.
     
  23. Poco

    Poco Member

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  24. Mark Layne

    Mark Layne Member

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    Toning Book

    Anyone interested in toning should obtain a copy of Tim Rudman's book.
    There is information in it that I was never aware of even after 40 yrs in the printing business. You will save the cost of the book in wasted chemicals not to mention time
    Mark
     
  25. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    Same with Ilford WT and Ethol LPD 1+6 or more diluted
     
  26. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    Viradon is one of the most pleasing and rewarding toners for a begginer IMHO

    Just remember to have some ventilation because it'll stink like rotten eggs