Use for TSP

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by jim appleyard, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    I've got quite a bit of leftover TSP (bought it for making MCM-100; not my favorite dev and used the rest of the glycin for Ansco 130) and have nothing to use it with. Does anyone know of some formula I can stick this stuff in?

    Or can it be subbed for sod. carb? I see its pH is close to sod. carb.

    (BTW, I don't know if the TSP I have is anal grade, farm grade, photo grade, 1st grade or mule fritters! As long as it ain't BORAX! :smile:
     
  2. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Tri Sodium Phosphate will generally be at a higher pH than Sodium Carbonate at equal molar concentration. I would have to look up the actual values, but IIRC, Sodium Carbonate is best at pH 10, and TSP is best at about 11.0.

    It is used in Kodachrome and Ektachrome processes to make a high pH reversal color developer. It can be used to formulate high contrast B&W developers, but it does not have good buffering ability compared to carbonate and therefore the pH has a tendancy to drop more quickly than other alkalis.

    It can be used to wash walls or it can also be used to wash dishes and as a replacement for Borax in the laundry. Oh, sorry. :D Its comparatively higher pH is more stressful on some fabrics and some kitchen ware.

    In any event, it is considered a 'bad' pollutant due to the ability of microorganisms to 'feed' on it when it is diluted in effluents.

    PE
     
  3. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Maybe one of these paper dev. formulas shamelessly copied off the net:

    Edwal 102
    Water 500 ml
    Sodium Sulfite 80 g
    Trisodium phosphate 120 g
    Glycin 25 g
    Potassium Bromide 3 g
    Water to 1000 cc

    Or:
    Wall and Jordan Unnamed Paper Developer

    Water 1000cc
    Sodium Sulfite 100g
    Trisodium phosphate 125g
    Glycin 25g
    Potassium Bromide 3g


    1:3 for chloride and chlorobromide papers,
    1:4 for bromide papers

    develops in 2 to 3 minutes

    Best,

    C
     
  4. fschifano

    fschifano Member

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    Back, wayyyy back, I worked as a janitor's assistant in the NYC public school system. It was a lot of hard work, but it paid well in those days. Imagine a 16 year old kid making $200 a week in 1969! Anyway, we used TSP to clean the desks, the walls, and the floors. Man, that stuff would strip off old wax like nobody's business. It also took the skin off your hands like nobody's business. We didn't think of using gloves back then.

    In high enough concentrations, it's pretty nasty stuff. Use it for those tough cleaning jobs, but do wear some gloves.
     
  5. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    There is nothing better for preparing walls when it is time to repaint - but be sure to:
    1) use gloves; and 2) rinse
     
  6. richard ide

    richard ide Member

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    Anal grade?? Should we worry?:D:D
     
  7. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Yes - check the Borax purity thread for the painful details.
     
  8. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Is it not also used in smaller concentrations as a chelating agent when using carbonate in hard water? I'll have to go look at the box I got at the supermarket to see if it contains phosphate or claims that it does not.:tongue:
     
  9. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Yes, TSP can remove calcium from water, but the best form for chelating is Sodium Hexameta Phosphate. This latter is also known as Graham's salt and was sold as Calgon and is derived from the sodium hydrogen phosphates rather than TSP.

    Calgon apparently no longer uses phosphates, nor do dishwasher solutions due to their effect on causing things like growths of algae in ponds and lakes. Kodak used Calgon until Calgon changed formulas and then went to Quadrofos instead. Quadrofos is a better chelating agent, uses phosphorous, but does not pollute the same way as TSP or the hexameta phosphate did.

    So, the TSP can be used as a sequestrant, but you must use it in small quantity and check the pH of the developer to insure that it is not changed by the TSP. The pH range of TSP is between 11.5 and 11.9 depending on concentration.

    PE
     
  10. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Well, it is a laxative, but a teaspoon or more taken at one time can kill you. Some say 1/8 teaspoon in a liter of water drunk over the course of a day cures everything from constipation through dandruff to fibromyalgia and beyond.
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Do not ever use TSP as a laxative. It can burn the mouth and esophagus and stomach due to the extreme alkalinity!

    The laxative is made up of Disodium Hydrogen Phosphate and Sodium Dihydrogen Phosphate. This is a nearly neutral buffer mix and will not burn. It is sold under several brand names in the proper mix to prevent burns.

    Another laxative phosphate is the famous magnesium phosphate. It is also nearly neutral in pH.

    PE
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2007
  12. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Speaking of antiquated remedies that one would be a bit foolish to take, my Merck Index mentions that metallic mercury has been used as a laxative. (You all thought I was going to talk about homeopathy - well that's a whole 'nother foolish notion. Ask a chemist why sometime.)

    It's sometimes called a "blue mass" or "blue pill", but the consituents are about 33% metallic mercury, honey, licorice, althea, glycerol and some mercury oleate. They do say it was used for vetrinary treatment of cats and that it can cause systemic poisoning but it also mentions that occasional ingestion of metallic mercury "is without harm"...

    I can only imagine the sensation of all that metallic mercury rolling about in your gut. And then it comes out - look out! So if anyone is interested in a most certainly dangerous medical treament, they might want to try that out.
     
  13. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    from Richard Morris "The Last Sorcerers..." page 77:

    "Phosphorus soon acquired a reputation as a medication that could cure almost anything and was reputed to be an aphrodisiac as well. In reality it is poisonous. But in those days the physicians were always looking for new ways to kill their patients, and they began using the substance with enthusiasm."
     
  14. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Now I see the ambiguity. I should have said I was referring to borax.
     
  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Again, in error.

    Borax and borate salts are quite poisonous especially to small children. They are not for internal use, but can be used externally and on mucous tissue in very dilute solutions. Borate salts are often used as pesticides.

    Do NOT take borate salts internally!

    PE
     
  16. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    I was hoping that this was NOT going to turn into a BORAX thread! :smile:

    BTW, with a few exceptions (Vit. C, coffee, red wine) anything that has the power to reduce silver, stays out of my mouth!
     
  17. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Not that far in error. 1/8 tsp in a liter of water to be drunk over the day is nowhere lethal, and many apparently are doing that with beneficial results. I'm not promoting it, just reporting what I read. Remember, there is more boron in the world's atmosphere than there is in the 100,000,000 ton reserve of Dial Corp. The lethal one time dose is about 4 grams IIRC, or about a teaspoonful. At 1/8 teaspoon/day, it is supposed to clean you out. From what iI have read, the biggest problem at that dose is staying away from the john. I will check up on that, however.
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Borate salts are lethal in children at less than 5 grams and in adults at less than 20 grams by injestion. Chronic use (as you describe using low levels) will cause a rather nasty condition called Borism. This is a rather unpleasant condition which would make the most devoted user happy to stop taking your advice.

    Details can be found in E. Browning, Toxicity of Industrial Metals, (Appleton-Century-Crofts, NY. 2nd ed. 1969) pp 90-97.

    I repeat to all. Do not injest borate salts of any sort. The results can be death or a debilitating chronic illness. Patricks advice is incorrect!

    PE
     
  19. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Patrick, remember in the other thread where I said that I prefer to go to doctors, not engineers, for medical advise...

    http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/245/addition_of_boric_acid_or_borax_to_food_supplements.pdf

    That's a link to a really informative analysis of boron in the human diet by the German Bundesinstitut für Risikobewertung, written as Germany was preparing to conform to EU standards. In this case, Germany had banned the use of boron in dietary uses due to it's toxicity. Now to comply with the EU, Germany was reviewing the data on boron.

    Here are some excerps from this paper:
    The boron concentration in the air is <0.5 up to 80 ng/m^3.

    According to the current WHO Guidelines for Drinking-Water Quality, the "Provisional Guideline
    Value” for boron levels in drinking water is 0.5 mg B/L. The provisional nature of this
    value is due to the fact that in areas with naturally high boron levels there are difficulties in
    complying with the value using the technologically available treatment methods. The boron
    levels in drinking water around the world are normally between 0.1 mg and 0.3 mg B/L.

    According to the Drinking Water Ordinance of 21 May 2001 Annex 2, Part 1, No. 3 which
    transposes Directive 98/83/EC, the limit value of 1 mg/l for boron in water for human consumption
    must be complied with in Germany.

    No consistent data are available on the lethal dose of boric acid and borax in man (7). The
    pharmaceutical literature indicates 0.8 to 3.0 g for infants, 5-6 g for small children, 12 to 30 g
    for adults as the lethal doses after oral intoxication (4, 5).

    ECETOC (European Centre for Ecotoxicology and Toxicology of Chemicals) a TDI (Tolerable Daily Intake) of 19.2
    mg B/day (7) for an adult weighing 60 kg

    They show that most of the orally ingested boron is excreted relatively quickly in urine
    (8, 22). For instance, 60-75% of 750 mg boric acid, equivalent to 131 mg boron, administered
    orally to test persons, was excreted within the first 24 hours and 93% within the first 96 hours
    of ingestion in urine (8).

    The tolerable upper intake level (UL) established by the European Food Safety
    Authority (EFSA) from all sources that does not lead to any health risks in conjunction with
    ongoing ingestion, is 10 mg for an adult per day.

    Given the uncertainty caused by the sparse data situation, the Institute recommends that boric acid or borax should not be used in food supplements.

    OK - enough excerpts. I hope you get the point that while what you suggest could be done, it greatly exceeds recommended dosages for borate compounds.

    Anyway, I bet it does "clean" you out!!
     
  20. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    "Patrick, remember in the other thread where I said that I prefer to go to doctors, not engineers, for medical advise..."

    RE: Engineers vs Scientists:

    my eye Doctor always tests my Inter Ocular Pressure to make sure I'm not at risk for Glaucoma.....he gives me eye drops, then uses a gadget that gently presses against my eye to estimate the pressure inside my eye. Since the eye drops keep me from feeling anything press against me..I had no clue how this test worked. SO I ask the Dr "hey, how does that thing work??" The DR looks at me for a second and asks "are you an engineer?"...I say Nooooooooo...and he explains that engineers always just ask him how the test works, but physicists always stay quiet for 10-15 minutes then announce they've figured it out and come up with some crackpot theory that's always wrong
     
  21. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Applanation tonometry - the thingie with the blue light. Those are soooo cool. I had to ask how it worked too, and I'm just a lowly analytical chemist.

    When I forst got glasses in the mid 70's, I had a opthalmologist that I swear was trained in the 19th century. I swear that he had a device that dropped a small ball bearing on your eye from a fixed height and he looked to see how high the rebound was. It was not a test that you wanted to have him do twice.
     
  22. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    Ah....I was a "glaucoma suspect" until the Dr got a new gadget that determines cornea thickness...which allows them to calibrate the pressure test...luckily I have a thick cornea...so the pressure reading got reduced and I'm no longer a glaucoma suspect
     
  23. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    You need THC instead of TSP if you have glaucoma. :D

    PE