Vermeer , Is unde printing necessary ?

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Its been a while for posting ideas and questioning techniques on excellent 16th century paintings and to use these techniques.
    I always asked myself why old Dutch Italian and Spanish paintings and the others have magnificient smooth tones and extreme naturalistic tones.
    So as I did many times , I researched the internet again and I reexamined the Vermeer sites.
    I think I found the answer , it is dead painting or underpainting.
    I will load few new vermeer like painting process pictures at this thread and Everyone will see the light.
    I read and researched on many different chemicals for archaeology and I discovered that Holland and North Germany Sea Coast is extremelly rich with amber.
    There are hundreds of shops at sea coast and they sell the tourists smallest to biggest amber pieces and jewellery.
    Tides are very important and When the Sea goes there are hundreds of ambers stucks to the sands and collectors collect with hand.
    I read Van Gogh Museum makes research on van gogh drawing inks and they compares the ink with many other same age drawings inks.
    I think the yellowish brown colors of Van Gogh comes from the amber.

    Well , lets return to underpainting process. Painter first prepares his ground and than draw the first lines and than he paints the paint with amber , black and grey color.
    This is the balance of the light , colors and the details.
    Than he paints the backgrounds with light colors and than he put the strong colors finally.

    I think We like the pt pd process very much because its perfect underpainting and waits to be colored after the first print. This is a big sentence but I believe this.
    Than the glazing comes and it smooth the painting . I wrote few threads before.

    Lets put the pictures and discuss.

    Best ,

    Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Istanbul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2010
  2. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    [​IMG]
     
  6. okto

    okto Member

    Messages:
    208
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Shooter:
    35mm
    ...what?
     
  7. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

    Messages:
    5,682
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    "What?" indeed.

    By the way, if your research has shown that "that Holland [...] Sea Coast is extremelly rich with amber" you may want to go over your notes and see what else is wrong too.
    (And i could point out a few more things in your post.)
     
  8. Marco B

    Marco B Member

    Messages:
    2,981
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    The Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Mustafa's posts can be a bit confusing, but his remarks about Amber don't seem so wrong. I learn something surprising and new each day too here on APUG. :wink:

    "Amber: kostbaar darmproduct
    Een zeldzaam en heel bijzonder produkt was grijze amber of 'ambergrijs'. Dit is een stevige, kneedbare substantie die gevonden wordt in het darmkanaal van sommige potvissen; het komt voor in slechts één tot twee procent van de dieren. Het ontstaan van potvisamber is nog niet geheel opgehelderd. Een klomp amber is opgebouwd uit concentrische lagen. In het midden zit meestal een (deel van) een inktvissnavel, die zich kennelijk in de darmwand heeft vastgezet. Waarschijnlijk reageert de darm hierop met de vorming van amber, waardoor het irriterende voorwerp wordt ingekapseld. Een klomp amber weegt gewoonlijk zo'n honderd gram tot een kilo, maar er zijn stukken van vierhonderd kilo gevonden. Amber wordt tenslotte door de potvis uitgescheiden; reeds in oude tijden was het bekend als aanspoelsel op (sub)tropische stranden. Oude amber heeft een muskusgeur. Men kan het smelten tot een chocoladeachtige substantie. Het is nog steeds zeer kostbaar en wordt gebruikt in de parfumindustrie, omdat vluchtige (geur)stoffen zich goed aan amber hechten. Gefortuneerde lieden droegen vroeger wel een klein bolletje geparfumeerde amber in een zilveren houdertje, een zogenaamd amberappeltje. Tegenwoordig wordt het ook gebruikt voor het vervaardigen van homeopatische geneesmiddelen."

    Quick and dirty translation:
    "Grey amber is a rare and precious substance formed in the guts of whales, especially sperm-whale. It is a knead-able solid substance formed in the gut, usually around some remain of a squid and maybe as a consequence of irritation of the gut, with pieces of 100-1000gram common, but pieces as large as 400kg have been found. It is finally expelled by the sperm-whale, and is known to strand on beaches. The substance is used in the cosmetics industry, as volatile fragrances attach to it.

    Also see this Wikipedia link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmbergrisHowever

    *** However *** looking through all this, Mustafa, I think you confuse "Ambergris" as primarily used in cosmetics, with resin based "Amber" from trees (see this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber), as used in painting. That is two very distinct different products, that only share the name "Amber"...

    About the underpainting: Yes, you are right that the luminosity of Dutch and Flemming paintings is much attributable to the underpainting or dead layer. In combination with oil-paint's characteristic to become more transparent with time, and the use of non-opaque pigments like umber (NO: not amber, umber is a natural mineral based color pigment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umber), it creates a special luminosity effect.

    I have always felt that chemical toning (sepia or selenium) of silver gelatine prints, does something similar, and adds "luminosity" to silver gelatine prints, although I doubt if the effect can be attributed to a similar "transparency" and "layered" image. If you have never done it Mustafa, I would recommend you to try and tone some silver gelatine prints to learn and appreciate the effect.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2010
  9. Marco B

    Marco B Member

    Messages:
    2,981
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    The Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    And as I pointed out in my last edits of the above post, I also think you may be confusing the mineral color pigment Umber with Amber. The first was used in the dead layer as part of the color and paint mixture, as Umber is a well known oil paint pigment, while Amber resin as far as I know was only, and rarely, used as part of a top glazing of paintings. But even there damar resin is, and was, much more common than amber.
     
  10. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Thank you again Marco , your posts have been always a lifeline.
    When it is difficult to buy bread at the morning , I left the experiments to other APUGers.
    Well , You are right , I might make a larger research. Thank you correcting me.
    In Turkish , amber is the only word and no other word to explain others.
    Like silikon , a plastic and the crystal.
     
  11. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    If I found chance , I will tone the positive bw films with palladium solution. It consumes less and you will have a transparent palladium print. I am also thinking to bleach the cheapest large format camera pinhole anamorphic 6 x 17 cms. positives and replace the silver with palladium.

    But I defend that there is close visual correlation between underpainting and the toned print or film.
    Autochrome is so successful because it has two layers RGB and BW.
    I posted a thread to make a inkjet printed autochrome , 6 color RGB on Panchromatic mimic under bw print.
    This is the same theory.
    Someone can post process his pictures and print a 1 color underprint and a multi color print over it.
    May be on a melinex film and hang on a light box.
    I still defend my theory when there are two different ambers.

    Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Istanbul
     
  12. bsdunek

    bsdunek Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,361
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    Location:
    Michigan
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    In any case, I like this one best. Amber or Umber - don't matter.
    I didn't know that Gray Amber was formed in whales. I think of our amber which is from pine tree pitch. Learn something every day if you pay a little attention.
     
  13. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

    Messages:
    5,682
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    You do mean amber, fossilized tree resin.
    It's harder to find at the Dutch North Sea shore than diamonds. (Just so you know: the first diamond has yet to be found here.)

    When, by the way, have you last found amber gris outside Wikipedia, Marco? When did you last come across a bit of it on the Dutch sea shores?
    Never, right?
    :wink:
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I watched a tv program last week from north west germany and there were tons of ambers at the shops and they told that amber comes from tides on sands.
    I think if there is amber at North Sea , it might come to the shores of Holland also.
    May be there is no sea shore at your place because its deep from North Sea Barriers.
    May be Frisian Islands have them.
    Go to a jewellry shop and ask where these amber comes from .
     
  16. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

    Messages:
    5,682
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Amber is not that hard to find on the Baltic coast. East Germany.
    Not found on the other side of Denmark.

    Amber is not used as a pigment.
     
  17. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    QG,

    Why ? Do you know the reason ? It would be interesting to learn that ! One time I wanted to learn Frisian and Afrikaans , than Polish and Vietnamese than Tibetan.
    I think Dutch is the most interesting sounded language with Vietnamese.
    They are totally reversed sounds when compared with each other.
     
  18. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

    Messages:
    5,682
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Two reasons:
    - It is far too rare, and thus too expensive.
    - There are enough other perfectly fine pigments, so there is no need.
     
  19. Allen Friday

    Allen Friday Member

    Messages:
    878
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Back to the issue of underpainting--underprinting (leaving the amber/umber issue aside.) Platinum/palladium prints are beautiful on their own. I love the look and feel of platinum/palladium prints. They have a richness and depth that only a few other processes can match. Nevertheless, platinum/palladium prints can can also be enhanced. There are several printers here on Apug and the Large Format Forum who use the pt/pl print as the starting point. Check out Kerik's work with gum over platinum. I took an excellent workshop on gum over platinum from him and his prints are truly wonderful. One or multiple layers of gum over platinum can, in the hands of someone like Kerik, greatly add to the presence of the print. Unfortunately, you really have to see the prints to appreciate the difference, a scan shown on a computer screen doesn't do the prints justice.

    On the LFF forum, there is a thread on posting alternative process prints. One printer is using pl/pt as a base print and then printing subtile ink jet colors over the base. I haven't see the actual prints, but the images look very good on the screen.

    I have also seen cyanotype over and under pt/pl prints. I personally do not like the blue of cyanotype mixed with the pl/pt, but YMMV.

    There is a printer in New Mexico who does tri-color gum over pl/pt. (I'd give you the reference, but it was bookmarked on my old computer.)

    I have also seen hand colored pl/pt prints, which meet with varying degrees of success, depending on the skill of the artist.

    I guess my point is that pt/pl prints can be beautiful on there own. But, they also can be the first step in further artistic exploration.
     
  20. Marco B

    Marco B Member

    Messages:
    2,981
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    The Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    * When was the last time you saw a sperm whale near the Dutch coast? :wink:
    * When was the last time you personally found resin based fossilized amber ANYWHERE on the globe? :wink:
    * When was the last time you personally found gold or silver? :wink:
    * When was the last time you personally found Juncus Pygmaeus (Dwergrus in Dutch), a plant species on the red list no. 1 (most endangered) of the Dutch Endangered Species listing?
    I did in 1997 on Vlieland! :D, I heard later that it had pissed off one of my former Biology teachers at University, as he had visited the same place, but missed it :wink:

    The fact that we personally don't find something which is known to be rare, does not mean nobody does, nor that experts who actually know where to look, and know how it is supposed to look, will not be able to find it.

    Just as another nice example:
    * And when was the last time you found a Woolly Mammoth bone on the Dutch coast? :wink:

    Yet, a fact known by few people, is that the Dutch part of the North Sea has yielded one of the largest and most extensive collections of Mammoth and other Ice Age animal bones. Fishermen almost daily drag something from the bottom in their nets. This is NO joke!

    As a consequence, one of the main experts on Woolly Mammoths, Dick Mol, is Dutch!

    So never assume something is wrong because you may not have heard of it, even if it requires digging in something as Wikipedia :blink:

    Another interesting fact: ever noticed all these small pieces of rounded black "wood" lying on the Dutch coast? They almost look like lumps of oil, yet they are thousands of years old. They come from old eroded peat layers, formed in the area where the Woolly Mammoths roamed: the North Sea before it was flooded after the last ice age... I love these historic things! :cool:

    Just as a reminder:

    - Ambergris or grey amber is a knead-able semi solid substance formed in the guts of sperm whales and occasionally beaches on shores. It has NO function in painting, it just, probably mostly historically, had a function in the cosmetics industry.

    - Amber as we "normally" know it (as a gem stone), is fossilized hardened resin from trees. It is NO color pigment (it is transparent as you all know :wink:), and it's only use in painting was as a varnish, mostly replaced by damar and synthetic varnishes today.

    - Umber is a mineral - clay-based - brown color pigment used in oil and other paints. It is valued for its natural transparency, and this is one of the main reasons it is found in many historical oil paintings, to achieve the "luminosity" Mustaffa was writing about.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2010
  21. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

    Messages:
    5,682
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Marco,

    Calm down! :wink:

    Just because you think that things that are rare do still exits doesn't mean that they are not rare.
    Your Juncus example shows how things are.

    Amber is not found on the Dutch coast. Your chances of finding your amber gris are much greater. Yet you won't find that either.
    But what if someone somewhere sometime found a bit of it, just like you did with that Juncus? Would that be enough for the old masters? Or van Gogh's ink? Would you fiding that Juncus on Vlieland mean that it's in every garden center for us all to get?

    And re what amber: it's quite clear what amber is meant, and that amber (not umber) is meant.


    Yes, the North Sea has not been that long. And lots of land animal fossiles are dredged up by trawlers (on either side of the North Sea, by the way).
    You can also find lots of fossilised jaw teeth, by the way.
     
  22. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Allen ,

    Thank you for enlightment , that was what ever I was thinking , I came there from Dutch painting and I was right. I read lots of posts about Kerik , I will rush and look to every photographer you indicated.

    Marco , wow what a anger , relax !

    Thank you for great information. I will try to visit Dutch museums when I grow up :smile:
     
  23. Marco B

    Marco B Member

    Messages:
    2,981
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    The Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Don't worry, I was only half serious! That is why I added so much smilies :wink:

    It is just fun to raise some of these topics... But I am sure Q.G. gets the irony and joking in it... :wink::D
     
  24. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,589
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    hahaha :smile: we say in Turkey , going to fire with gasoline pump :smile:
     
  25. Marco B

    Marco B Member

    Messages:
    2,981
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    The Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Yes, something like that... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  26. Marco B

    Marco B Member

    Messages:
    2,981
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    The Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Who said it needed to be in every garden centre for us all to get if one person could find it?

    There has been only one Van Gogh and one Rembrandt :blink::D:D

    And one real "Sinterklaas"! :wizard: (the rest are fakes, you know :wink::wink::wink:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2010