Voigtlander und Sohn in Wien No. 3611 brass barrel lens

Discussion in 'Ultra Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by 2F/2F, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Hi,

    This sweet-looking lens was discovered while digging through an estate that my employer is preparing for a sale on Sat.

    It is approx. 10 inches long, four inches wide with a brass body. It has a slot for the insertion of stops (although we did not find any stops), and a sliding mounting collar that can be placed anywhere along the body of the lens. There is no retainer nut on the mounting flange. It has a front cap and a removable lens hood. It's only identifying marks are engraved on the barrel in cursive: "No. 3611 (skip line) Voigtlander & Sohn (skip line) in Wien."

    It is quite similar to the one in this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Voigtla...39:1|66:2|65:12|240:1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

    I am looking for any info on this lens. Focal length, year of manufacture, street value, etc. We are trying to figure out an approximate value so we can decide to either EBay it or let me purchase it.

    I am hoping it is a little-known lens without a cult following, as I am eager to mess with it.

    The house is the estate of a retired Cal-Tech professor, and was found in a bottom kitchen cabinet in a box of antique measuring instruments. Could it be an astrophotography lens that she pilfered from a Cal-Tech stockroom using the justification that it would never be used again?

    Thank you in advance.
     
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  2. eddie gunks

    eddie gunks Member

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    i am going to guess it will give you great swirls. get it! if you put it on e bay let me know:smile: for your sake tell them i said it is worth 40-50$! buy it and run! tell them that the swirls=bad glass that is real old etc etc.

    good luck.
     
  3. gandolfi

    gandolfi Member

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    I would buy it...

    look here: http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/sn.htm

    according to this list the lens is from approx 1850, which i ooold...

    the focal length is easy to figure out: point the lens towards the sun and mesure the distance between the slot for the apertures and the focused sun (or another bright item far away from the lens (infinity).
    that's the focal length.

    (then mesure the diameter of the front lens, and divide it into the found focal length: that's the aperture..
    ex: 300mm focal length. 100mm diameter of the front lens gives an aperture of F:3...)

    the value is difficult to estimate as you havn't any pictures for us to see. (condition is important for collectors, so the better looking, the better price..)

    that age means proberly a Petzval type lens, but that is also easy to determine if you dismantle the lenses and look for the construction...

    http://members.aol.com/summaron7/petzval.htm

    hope this helps.
    (I'd love to see it!)
     
  4. goamules

    goamules Member

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    Values on large petzvals have been very volatile the past year. One like this could go pretty high. Once in a while, one goes low. You can use that fact to try to buy it yourself, tell the seller nothing is certain on OhBoy. I assume all 3 lenses are there, and in good shape, and the focus knob is there. I'd pay up to a couple C notes if he'll take it. If you feel you really need it go a little higher.
     
  5. jimgalli

    jimgalli Subscriber

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    Is it possible to get a digi snap posted of the lens with perhaps a yardstick for reference. Just not enough info to make an educated guess. The one in Aus is laughable trying to get that much $$ for a lens missing it's glass. Prices go up exponentially for the really large ones. Does this lens have waterhouse stop slot?
     
  6. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Hello to all.

    Thank you all for the info on this lens.

    I just disassembled the lens, cleaned the filthy glass, and put it back together.

    All three elements are there and in good shape. The pinion is not present, nor are the stops, though there is a slot for the stops underneath the sliding collar.

    [​IMG]
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  7. Barry S

    Barry S Subscriber

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    Three elements? Do you see a cemented doublet in front and two air spaced elements in the rear? If so, it's definitely a Petzval. Did you measure the focal length? If the diameter of the glass is about 3", that would put it around 12-13" assuming a classic f/3.8 Petzval. So it was probably meant to cover whole plate. With the original metal lens cap--sweet! Is it your lens now?
     
  8. cdholden

    cdholden Subscriber

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    Tab? Ewwwwwww.
     
  9. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    The entrance pupil seems to be about 2 1/2", so a f:3.8 Petzval would be about 9 1/2" - or 240mm or so.

    That fits in well with a total length of 10" - Petzvals are just a little bit shorter than the focal length, so subtracting the hood brings us into that range.

    And that focal length would be made for 9x12cm or smaller. If it had been some decades newer I would have guessed it was made for "Cartes des Visite", but at that time I think more like lantern slides. :wink:
     
  10. luvcameras

    luvcameras Advertiser

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    It is a definitely a Petzval - thats really all Voigtlander sold at this point in time for camera lenses - although 3 elements is not correct - should have 4 elements...

    My pages have all moved to antiquecameras.net and my Petzval Lens page

    http://antiquecameras.net/petzvallens.html

    The lens dates to 1849-1850. So, it was likely used on a Dag camera. The slot was added later.

    If I were asked, I think the lens value is around $ 300 if all the elements are there... It would be worth much more with a flange and the rack/pinion...

    Dan
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2009
  11. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Hello,

    Yes, Tab. :D It is one of our jokes at work. We use a can of Tab to show scale.

    My boss feels, after researching and talking to some folks, that he could get $600 to $800 for the lens. He has offered it to me for $400. I can pay him outright, or just not log 34 hours of work (of which I already have about 20 logged and unpaid).

    I really am in love with the sucker on principle, but without a flange or pinion, I think even $400 is a bit much.

    Maybe I need to do some test shots on my 5x7 to see how much I really love it in practice. It could end up being nothing great.

    Also, having disassembled this lens, I can say that it was originally built with the slot for the stops. There is internal hardware integral to the barrel that could not have been added later, and nothing looks to be added or modified at all.

    I misspoke earlier. There are three groups, not three elements. The two front elements are glued together into one group. Additionally, from what I can gather, the two rear groups are flipped compared to Petzval's original design. Apparently, this is a modification that Voigtlander made, according to someone on the Wiki-thingy...whatever that is worth.
     
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  12. luvcameras

    luvcameras Advertiser

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    I'd love to see a photo of the aperture slot.

    Dan
     
  13. eddie gunks

    eddie gunks Member

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    it is a famous name lens for sure. $400? hhmmm? he is not doing you a big favor. on e bay it may go about that high IMO but i woulod guess less. it is not as big as i thought at 1st. there was a similar dallmeyer that went recently on e bay for $504. but it was real real nice with the flange and focus knob. it also covered 8x10.

    work him a bit and see if you can get down into the 200 range....that would be better (obviously).
    have you been watching on the bay for them to go by.....there are plenty out there.

    good luck. keep us posted.
     
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  14. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    It is a first generation Petzval, before Voigtander and Petzval parted brass rags
    (before the Voigtlander factory was built in Braunschweig,
    over the border in Germany, to get away from petzval's control)

    There is no flange, and there should be a focus wheel to move the lens within the brass collar,
    as you've noted. And the picture shows the barrel should be rotated 180˚ within the collar.

    $100 ~ $400, depending on condition. This looks like $200.

    It IS as historical a lens as you can get, but for those who think swirls are dumb (sorry)
    there isn't any reason to go beyond $400. No focus AND no flange cuts the value in half.

    A complete kit, with stops, would be different !

    The last one I sold was complete (2008), and made about $400.
    It was originally on a stereo camera, see the flat ground on the flange and collar.
     

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  15. jonw

    jonw Member

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    Hey df, do you recall the dimensions on your lens? I have a newer Voightlander & Sohn lens, i.e., No. 5, sn25028, which I calculate to be a 24 inch f1.6 lens. I think I am calculating the estimated aperture given it is about 5 inches long and 3 inches wide. I am still trying to figure out information on my lens. Jon
     
  16. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Jon, if the focal length of the lens is 24" and the width only 3in, it can be no faster than 24/3 - or f:8. Petzvals are typically about as long as the focal length.

    The serial number list in Thiele starts with 27450 as 1884, so it has to be a little before that. Does it say "in Wien" or "Wien & Braunschweig"? Anyway it has to be something made before 1884, which means Petzval Portrait, Petzval Orthoskop, Landscape lens, or Aplanat (Euryskop).

    At that time there was only one Euryskop, the f:7.2 - which only went to 1070mm focal length. So that's out.

    Landscape lenses are an achromatic meniscus behind the aperture, and came in f:33 only (the f:15 started in 1888), so that's out too.

    Petzval Portrait lenses are, as I said, about as long as the focal length and were no slower than f:6.8. So that's eliminated, too!

    That leaves the Orthoskop, and Thiele lists a 3" lens of 615mm focal length, at f:11.7. That fits!
     
  17. jonw

    jonw Member

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    Thanks Ole. My lens states " in wein" and I appreciate being corrected for it is an f8 lens when came with an waterhouse slot aperture which at some time I calucated to be f12 given the fact it appears to reduce the aperature from about 3 inches to 2 inches.

    Thank you again. Jon
     
  18. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Well, I finally got the lens. Will get around to taking some pix with it one of these days. I have only peered through it on the ground glass of my 8x10 while someone held it for me. Looks like it will cover 4x5 no problem, and does not look all that swirly, if at all. Gotta rig it up to a lens board for my Sinar or Kodak No. 2 somehow first. I don't think my Sinar Copal DB shutter is wide enough to use with this lens.
     
  19. eddie gunks

    eddie gunks Member

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    good work....long hard battle....