Want to use C-41 fix for E-6 in deep tank, dilution?

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by PHOTOTONE, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I have a surplus of C-41 fix and replenisher..gallon jug to make 5 gallons. I want to use it for E-6 fixing. I have a 3.5 gallon sink line. The concentrate to make 5 gallons of E-6 fix and replenisher comes in a much smaller bottle thus I believe it to be more concentrated.

    Could anyone recommend a dilution for working tank solution for the C-41 fix and replenisher (in tha gallon jug to make 5 gallons), and a fixing time?

    I normally mix up the real E-6 fix for a 2-3 minute fix time.

    I have been told the E-6 and C-41 fixers are essentially the same thing.

    If I am to use it for E-6 at the same tank dilution as C-41 I can figure that out, however wouldn't that give a 6.5 minute fix time? as opposed to the shorter times I can get with REAL E-6 fix?
     
  2. Photo Engineer

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    There is a difference, and since E6 uses a pre-bleach, there might be problems. I would be cautious about this switch being 1:1. Ektachrome is harder to bleach than C41 films due to having 2x the quantity of silver metal in the image and having the silver partly encapsulated by dye clouds.

    PE
     
  3. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    Well, I really didn't think it would be a 1:1 switch. Rather I was wondering if it would work satisfactorily at all, and if so, what dilution from the concentrates I have.
     
  4. Photo Engineer

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    I would start by measuring the pH of the bleaches. If they are just about the same (within about 0.5 units) then you are on better ground than if they were far different. Some dyes in films can be destroyed by the wrong bleach at the wrong pH. That is my point here.

    Also, if the pre-bleach is required to interact with a specific bleach formula, then the C-41 bleach might not interact properly.

    PE
     
  5. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    PE..I am talking about C-41 FIX, not bleach. I want to use C-41 FIX for E-6.
     
  6. Photo Engineer

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    Sorry. But, in any event, the straight C-41 fix is identical to the E6 fix for all practical purposes IF the pH is the same and I don't remember OTOMH. The C-41 RA fix, a new product, is not identical in any way to the E6 fix and may reticulate your film or cause other harm. The dye sets are not compatible and the original E6 and C41 processes were designed for a more fragile dye set. They were also closer to each other but gradually diverged. Today, the C-41 process is quite different than the original especially the C-41 RA chemistry, but the E6 is only slightly different.

    PE
     
  7. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    So, in general, if I have the regular C-41 fix...not the "C-41 RA" fix, then I can interchange it with standard E-6 fix? Is it the same concentration in the bottle?

    In other words the E-6 fix and replenisher to make 5 gallons comes in a 1/2 gallon bottle. The C-41 fix and replenisher to make 5 gallons comes in a 1 gallon bottle. Can I assume that they are both the same concentration, or is the C-41 (1 gallon bottle to make 5 gallons) 1/2 as concentrated as shipped from Kodak?
     
  8. Photo Engineer

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    The C41 is a stronger fix in some ways due to the DIR coupler fragments which inhibit fixing action.

    All you can assume is that they both contain Ammonium Hypo and Ammonium Sulfite and EDTA as basic ingredients (or NTA for the case of the fixer for Bleach III). I would say that since this goes to completion, as long as the mixed solution has the right pH you are ok. Overfixing due to higher concentration might mean you need a longer wash, but otherwise would not be harmful. The wrong pH might harm the dyes or shift their hues.

    If you wish, send me a PM and I'll give you my phone # and then we can talk more about this in detial.

    PE