what causes Pink Coloration to Stab / Final Rinse after use

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by pukalo, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. pukalo

    pukalo Member

    Messages:
    121
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I noticed that although I always do an extended and thorough final wash step, regardless, when I do the Final Rinse (Kodak) or Stabilizer (Tetenal) wash, it alwyas gets a pimk/magenta coloration to the Final Rinse/Stab. Does anyone know what causes this?
     
  2. ricardo12458

    ricardo12458 Member

    Messages:
    91
    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Location:
    Grand Prairi
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Are you using respooled Ektachrome 100D cine film?

    -R
     
  3. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,936
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It usually means that the washes before that step were not good enough and that bleach is being carried over into the final rinse.

    And this can be in spite of what you think is a good wash. Try doubling the washes.

    It should be bleach, wash, fix, wash, final rinse.

    PE
     
  4. pukalo

    pukalo Member

    Messages:
    121
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks PE ! With my Kodak Kits, I think I have been doing Bleach, then Fix with no wash step in between. I thought I had read in one of your earlier posts that you could wash between to extend life of fixer, so now I will do this. I will also try doubling my wash times, before the Final Rinse.

    Also, could this be residual Color Developer? Not sure why, as I am no expert, but I somehow suspected it might be that, and played with the idea of introducing a wash, then a Kodak Final Rinse Step, then wash, then Tetenal Stab step when I use Tetenal kits (which sadly I will need to do as I have only 2 Kodak 5L kits remaining). Is there any harm in this that you know of? I think I read once (maybe from you?) that the Kodak Final Rinse has special chemicals to mop up residual color developer. Does Formaldehyde have the same effect in Tetenal Stabilizer?

    Also, is there any harm that you know of in doing a 2 minute Stab with the Tetenal kit (kit says 1 minute)? My thought is better safe than sorry, want good formaldehyde stab of the film.

    Final question, I noticed that the Arista kit gave fantastic color saturation, too much actually, made my Astia and 400X look like Velvia, but not good for skin tones. Could this be because of different Color Developer chemicals?

    I know I have asked a lot of questions, and greatly appreciate your previous response. Your knowkledge is invaluable, you defintely know your stuff! It amazes me the details you remember, even in retirement.
    And I hope Kodak pulls through. I work for one of the auto companies, that went thru a similar ordeal a few years ago. I know how many workers and retirees depend upon Kodak. It is an American icon, and I for one cant imagine being without Kodak. All my favorite films, EB, EBX, 400UC, Portra, BW400CN, even I begrudgingly admit, Ektar 100, are/were all made by kodak. My kids growing up, our vacations, so many memories, all shot on Kodak film...Anyways, I hope kodak gets through this.
     
  5. pukalo

    pukalo Member

    Messages:
    121
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm
    No, not using 100D. Shooting mainly EB, EBX, Astia, and 400X.
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,936
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Pukalo;

    This is not residual color developer. That is long gone. It is retained bleach and retained dyes.

    Extending the stabilizer / final rinse will cause no problem. I do it myself.

    I cannot answer your questions about the color developer as I have never used those kits, but I suspect an alteration in the formulas of the first or color developer that changes the color reproduction.

    PE
     
  7. ricardo12458

    ricardo12458 Member

    Messages:
    91
    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Location:
    Grand Prairi
    Shooter:
    35mm
    @pukalo: Oh. Because Ektachrome 100D will do that to the chemistry. Not a problem, just stains them pink.

    Thanks
    R
     
  8. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,299
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I get some pink residue in the final rinse no matter how long I wash, too. I think it's completely normal. Just make sure you wash enough so you don't have to worry. I'm using typically 7-8 water changes in a Jobo rotary processor. Many sources state that 4-5 is enough but that sounds a bit low and is probably based on the assumption that the tank drains optimally every time. The (very slight) pink discoloration is there anyway even if I change the water 10 times or wash with running water outside the tank.
     
  9. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,936
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I do not get it if I wash after the bleach and after the fix and use a bit longer times and more changes of water.

    PE
     
  10. GeorgK

    GeorgK Member

    Messages:
    83
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Shooter:
    35mm
    If it's "pink", then I doubt that this is bleach. I guess it is the same "pinkyness" that one can observe in fixer or wash water after developing a Tmax, coming from sensitizer/filter dyes.
    It depends on the pH of fixer and water (and other parameters, I guess), when and how quick it is washed out from the emulsion layer.

    Georg
     
  11. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

    Messages:
    2,055
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Location:
    Nicholasvill
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I have washed (both washes) as long as 20 minutes with a Gravity Works film washer that changes the water completely every minute and still I get a Final Rinse that turns slightly pink.
     
  12. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,961
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Location:
    Melbourne, V
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I don't have this problem, I don't use a washer, I just stand my film in still water at processing temp for 5-10 minutes, then I come back, water is pink, I change it, I repeat this until the water is clear, not pink. Works well, I put the reels in a beaker so I can easily see the water colour.
     
  13. madgardener

    madgardener Member

    Messages:
    407
    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Location:
    Allentown PA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    So far with the Tetenal kits that I have used, I haven't had this problem either. I use a Patterson tank with the special hose attachment they sell hooked up to a sink for my washing. I turn the water on to a good flow, attach the hose to the tank and let it run for 7 minutes, so far no problems (other than the water bill).
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,961
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Location:
    Melbourne, V
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    You could possibly save your waste water and put it into a simple solar still for re-usage.
     
  16. madgardener

    madgardener Member

    Messages:
    407
    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Location:
    Allentown PA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    That would work in the summer, I could use it for my gardens. Winter is another matter.
     
  17. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,299
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    "Ilford style" fill, agitate & dump (repeat X times) wash surely saves water. It has been continuously debated whether it saves time or not and whether 4 repeats is enough or not, but in any case, 7-8 repeats, 30 seconds each, is enough without a doubt and conserves quite a bit water. If you have a slight pink discoloration after this treatment, it surely is not any kind of problem. You can ask any lab technician how their final rinses look like...

    In professional cine style labs, multi-stage countercurrent washes are absolutely preferred and recommended by Kodak. In small tank processing, you cannot use the waste water coming from the "next" stage so easily (unless you can summon it from the future), but of course, you can save your last wash waters until the next process, to be used in the beginning of the final wash.

    For example, if you use 8 wash cycles and save the water from the last four to be used as first four cycles next time (in the same order), you can cut your water usage by half.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2012
  18. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,961
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Location:
    Melbourne, V
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I find I only change water 4-5 times with just letting it soak for extended time until the water is clear.

    Also with these methods of non-constant flow, you can re-use your waste water from the solar still idea for your film again, so you're not just re-using water you'd otherwise tip down the drain, but reducing your consumption.
     
  19. madgardener

    madgardener Member

    Messages:
    407
    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Location:
    Allentown PA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    If I was to use a solar still, that would create pure distilled water, yes? Assuming that the water is true distilled, I could use it for mixing my chemicals and for the "final" rinse and photo-flo dunk?
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,936
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ummm, NO!

    You see, the bleaches, blixes and fixes use Ammonia in them. Ammonia is quite volatile and can be distilled over. The Ammonia can "do bad things" if it builds up. That is why you want to wash well.

    LESSON: You cannot make distilled water easily from water that contains Ammonium ions. You have to make it into Distilled Deionized water.

    PE
     
  21. madgardener

    madgardener Member

    Messages:
    407
    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Location:
    Allentown PA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks for that critical bit of information, PE. I greatly appreciate it. I know others have told you so, but now I am saying it. Its great having you here!

    So I think I will just put up with the slightly higher water bill and continue to rinse the daylights out of my film. The times I really go on developing benders, my bill goes up by about $3.
     
  22. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,936
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Mad!

    Thanks.

    Just BTW, the reddish ingredient in bleaches is similar to the active ingredient in Mir Acid for Rhododendron and Azalea plants. If acidified it supplies Iron to the plants. :D The ammonia supplies Nitrogen.

    So, dilute silver free bleach or oxidized silver free blix can be used in limited quantities on gardens. Just don't overdo it.

    PE
     
  23. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,961
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Location:
    Melbourne, V
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    For re-using wash water as wash water.

    If you want drinking quality/pure water, there are similar things to this you could use (also related - Eastman Chemical Company) in combination with a simple solar still. If you waned to do that, that is.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm5-kc2vRBo
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2012
  24. bvy

    bvy Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,965
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm still getting slightly pink final rinse. I thought it was the bleach being carried over. But I've since switched from red to green bleach. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, though. I'm no chemist.

    I use a Paterson tank with film washer hose, and rinse for three to four minutes after bleach and fix. I also dump the water at least twice during these rinses.
     
  25. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,936
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It could be retained dyes just as seen in B&W films. They would come out after fixation is complete ass there is nothing left to hang onto. One of the dyes is particularly resistant.

    Take a few ml of Stabilizer and add some Sulfite solution to it. If it takes the pink away, it is probably the dye or it might be retained developing agent which goes pink. If the former is true, there is no problem, but if it is retained CD4, there will be an eventual problem. You need to consider using a stop bath after the developer or something like that.

    PE
     
  26. Terry Christian

    Terry Christian Subscriber

    Messages:
    697
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2011
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I've noticed, too, that no matter how thoroughly I bleach and fix, and no matter how well I wash the film before the stabilizer, I still get a pinkish tinge to it. I decided to stop worrying about it.