What kind of shutter issue is this?

Discussion in 'Rangefinder Forum' started by IloveTLRs, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. IloveTLRs

    IloveTLRs Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Location:
    Boston
    Shooter:
    Sub 35mm
    Hello everyone,

    I just developed two rolls of Tri-X yesterday in R90 1:50. This shot is from a Leica II which was performing fine a few months ago.

    Notice how the image is dark in the middle. It is a bit more pronounced in some photos, and absent in others. I did two rolls at once, and the roll from a different camera didn't have this at all.

    I'm no shutter expert (besides wrecking them) but can anyone tell me how a horizontal focal plane shutter would cause something like this?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

    Messages:
    6,459
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    A very distinctive symptom. A sticking shutter curtain which allows more light to strike the film at a certain point in its travel. When you press the shutter release the first curtain begins to open. Shortly after that the second curtain is released and begins to follow the first. Other than a short time parallax between the two motions the travel of the two curtains must be at the same speed. When the second curtain does not move smoothly (sticks) you get the distinctive exposure pattern seen in the sample. If the problem should be reversed and the first curtain sticks then you would see a band of reduced exposure.

    Check to see that the grooves that the curtains run in are clean and there is no foreign material there. Another possibility is dirt in the gear train that controls the shutter.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2013
  3. Mark Feldstein

    Mark Feldstein Member

    Messages:
    154
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Location:
    Monterey, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Gerald gave you an excellent explanation. I'd suggest it's time to take or send that body in for a Cleaning Lube and Adjustment. Leica's factory service HQ is in Germany. There's a bunch of good info on how to access that service, paperwork requirements, etc., here
    http://us.leica-camera.com/service/service_and_repair/headquarters_germany/
    although come to think of it, you may have a certified Leica repair specialist right in your own neighborhood. Silly me eh? :D
    Mark
     
  4. summicron1

    summicron1 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,992
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Location:
    Ogden, Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    i'm unclear -- is this picture cropped out of a horizontal frame, or is it a full frame on its edge--turned vertical?

    If what you are showing us is the cropped middle of a full horizontal negative then, yeah, your second curtain may be hanging up in the middle of its run. CLA advised.

    If this is a full frame, just vertical, then I'd have to ask if the dark band extends through the blank spaces between negatives, because there is no way a camera with a horizontal-running shutter is going to fog a negative like this, if this is a full frame, not just cropped.

    scan three negs, with outside border areas, and post that-- makes analysis much easier.

    Also, Leica will not service a II. You will have to send it to an independent shop. Essex in New Jersey does a good job.
     
  5. grahamp

    grahamp Subscriber

    Messages:
    974
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Location:
    San Francisc
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If the shutter travel is parallel to the long axis of the sample image, and it is on all frames, but not in the short rebates, I'd suspect a (badly) perforated shutter blind.
     
  6. IloveTLRs

    IloveTLRs Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Location:
    Boston
    Shooter:
    Sub 35mm
    Thank you for all the replies. The original photo I posted was shot portrait. I've attached two more photos - shot landscape - with the same problem.
    It's fine if Leica doesn't service IIs anymore, I know of a few places I can send it.

    I wish I could do it myself, but I'm positive I would destroy it
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

    Messages:
    2,132
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Location:
    NYC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Your Leica has a horizontal shutter, it wouldn't cause a line like this if it was hanging or slow. Most likely a light leak somewhere.
     
  8. Peltigera

    Peltigera Member

    Messages:
    715
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Location:
    Lincoln, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Surely a light leak would cause a white band? Is it possible that there is some frayed material or a lump of fluff stuck to the leaning or trailing edge of one of the blinds?
     
  9. michael stevens

    michael stevens Member

    Messages:
    38
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Location:
    England
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I had exactly this problem with my M4-P. Although the effect on the negative was a little different which may be because I've darkened the attached image to make the problem more pronounced. It only showed up with faster shutter speeds where the gap between the curtains was narrow and being almost spanned by the fluff.

    Holding the camera at an angle with the back removed and the shutter held open on B, I could just about see some tiny strands of loose felt attached to the metal strip (cap?) on the edge of the curtain towards the bottom of the camera. A combination of tweezers and a bit of huffing and puffing removed them.

    Hope this helps.

    marks_bw.jpg
     
  10. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

    Messages:
    2,132
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Location:
    NYC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Yeap sorry you are right I was a bit sleepy and didn't take a closer look at the set of images. I hope you get to fix this, its a nice little camera.
     
  11. IloveTLRs

    IloveTLRs Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Location:
    Boston
    Shooter:
    Sub 35mm
    Well this is embarrassing ..

    I thought it may actually be my Leica IIIc causing that trouble (I shot that roll about two months ago.) So I ran a roll through both cameras.

    .. and the problem did not resurface :pouty:

    I also tried Rick Olson's CRT shutter speed check (http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-135.html) on both cameras and neither showed trouble (as did two other unrelated cameras.)

    Sorry everyone ..
     
  12. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,804
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    There you go, as a leica that is only about 80 years old shouldn't cause any problems.
     
  13. 250swb

    250swb Member

    Messages:
    396
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Location:
    Peak Distric
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Possibly something across lens then, like the strap?

    Steve
     
  14. summicron1

    summicron1 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,992
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Location:
    Ogden, Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    There's no way your camera caused fogging like that down the middle of a lengthwise piece of film. Has to be fogging from some other cause.

    Scientific testing demands repeatability. Run a factory-loaded roll you know is good, and soup that, see what happens. Review all your film handling procedures while you do.

    oh, wait, i see you did.

    Problem solved. Check your film stocks...
     
  15. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    17,174
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Correct me if I am wrong, but the examples posted by the OP are positives, so if there is any fogging, it is at the edge of the negatives, not the centre.

    It looks to me like something is in the light path near the centre of the image field.
     
  16. q_x

    q_x Member

    Messages:
    169
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Location:
    Poland
    Shooter:
    Pinhole
    I have whole array of things that might have gotten bad, some of which can come and go, just as you wrote:
    ripped curtains could make this pattern go on and off, check for loose thread sticking out of a curtain edge
    badly serviced curtains (unevenly attached) - not very probable to manifest itself on a single roll only
    Faulty development or fixing - it's a bizarre pattern, but you newer know... If you've done stand development, I would blame the processing part, not the shutter.
    A hair or a thread somewhere inside the lens (somewhere near rear element?) - most probable cause IMO too, may vanish by itself
    A light leak, as suggested, may manifest itself this way, or a faulty cassette
    Finally, a batch of film might have been produced with a flaw like this

    It's not really good to hear things like this to come and go, there's a chance of it coming back and ruining more shots. Prevention needs the cause to be known.
     
  17. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

    Messages:
    6,459
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The problem with a sticking shutter sometimes goes away with exercise. However it usually comes back.
     
  18. IloveTLRs

    IloveTLRs Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Location:
    Boston
    Shooter:
    Sub 35mm
    In my experience when shutter troubles have come up, they rarely go away without a proper repair.

    That being said, I believe it's a light leak and possibly the way I opened the film canister. I've always found Kodak canisters to be tricky, so I try to leave the leader out.
     
  19. michael stevens

    michael stevens Member

    Messages:
    38
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Location:
    England
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I don't understand why dark areas on (positive) photos are so often diagnosed as light leaks. Surely something's blocking the light not letting it in. If it were the extra light from a leak causing the issue, the photo would show white or overexposed areas. It would be the original negative that showed dark areas. Or am I missing something?
     
  20. 250swb

    250swb Member

    Messages:
    396
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Location:
    Peak Distric
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    No you are missing nothing, I just wonder how there can be so many posts accumulated between them by so many people who still can't see the difference between negative and positive........on a film forum!

    Steve
     
  21. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,804
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Are, discerning the difference between negative and positive, that old chestnut. It is almost like asking people to think in reverse. I think it is because of this constant neg/pos conundrum that I sometimes try and pull doors that say push.
     
  22. michael stevens

    michael stevens Member

    Messages:
    38
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Location:
    England
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I suppose throwing slides into the equation complicates matters occasionally!
     
  23. momus

    momus Member

    Messages:
    2,706
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Location:
    Lower Earth
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    If it was a light leak it would be white on the photo. On the neg it would be dark. If it were slide film it would be the same as a photo (positive), white. Possibly a development issue? In any case, it's gone. For now.
     
  24. jochen

    jochen Member

    Messages:
    351
    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Hello,
    not enough volume of developer in the tank?
     
  25. IloveTLRs

    IloveTLRs Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Location:
    Boston
    Shooter:
    Sub 35mm
    I thought of that, but no, I measured it out. This roll was on the bottom, so it should have been no problem.