What's going on??

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by Peter Schrager, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,790
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    And if they differ, it is due to the fact that there is often more than one way to answer a question.

    PE
     
  2. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    13,640
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Your argument is not valid to me as the some is true for each and every piece of photographic equipment too in such location.
     
  3. bvy

    bvy Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,401
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Some of want to do new things with the same old equipment.
     
  4. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    13,640
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Where there is old equipment there often are old books too. And film and chemicals cannot be bought in a remote place anyway.
     
  5. macfred

    macfred Subscriber

    Messages:
    814
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Could you imagine ? I'm a seventeen years old virgin ... I guess my avatar is somewhat misleading :angel: ...
     
  6. silveror0

    silveror0 Member

    Messages:
    128
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2007
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    There once was a young man starting out in a chosen activity who wished to learn how to succeed in it, so he sought a successful person in that activity and when he found such a person he asked:
    Q: "How did you become successful?"
    A: Well, it comes from good judgment.
    Q: "But how do you get good judgment?"
    A: It comes from experience.
    Q: "But how do you gain experience?"
    A: That comes from bad judgment.

    That's how I learned long before the internet existed; it MAY take longer (or not, depending on how much conflicting internet info one must sort through). A qualified mentor who has put his experience in writing is a good thing and is an excellent starting point - certainly better than the anonymous hecklers from the shadows in the back of the room.

    BTW, and a bit off topic perhaps, I hear there's a movement underway to have the internet shut down for a day to celebrate Al Gore's birthday. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  7. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,211
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Not buying it. The Midwest is not Outer Mongolia. I've lived where the largest county in the state had a grand total of 500 inhabitants. Can't get much more rural than that. In this day and age you can purchase just about anything and have it delivered just about anywhere. This is certainly true of books.

    While it may appear to be a chore to read through a long thread you might actually learn more than one thing. This is also one of the merits of reading books.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  8. pdeeh

    pdeeh Member

    Messages:
    4,114
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2012
    Location:
    UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you can't say it in 140 characters, it ain't worth saying ...
     
  9. winger

    winger Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,040
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    southwest PA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Freestyle has a phone number to call. Local stores had 35mm film still and there may have been shops with chemicals in cities - I didn't go looking because I called Freestyle. I'm not talking about remote, just rural. If someone has a camera they found in an attic, that doesn't mean they found books with it.

    If you don't know what it is that you don't know and what you need, you don't know what books to read. When I took photo classes, they had lists of books to get. If you're on your own, you don't have that good first place to start. People asking at APUG because they're new are looking for a start - they don't have a scientific approach, they just jumped in and started trying to swim. There's really nothing wrong with that; it just isn't the same way we started.
     
  10. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    13,640
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Many of us never took a photo class, had no mentor, and no internet. And nevertheless they got wiser.
     
  11. Toffle

    Toffle Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Location:
    Point Pelee,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I was a school teacher for many (many) years. One inescapable fact of teaching is that beginners ask beginners' questions. In fact, students often don't know how to properly phrase a particular question or where to begin to find the answers; they haven't yet learned the conventions or vocabulary. It would do little good to roll my eyes and boast about how many times I had answered the same question. For them, the problem was new. I always treated my students kindly. It was my job to get them past these hurdles, not to torpedo their attempts to improve, however tedious it may have seemed to more experienced eyes.

    In the classroom, I was responsible for all learning under my purview. Here on APUG, I can choose which discussions to join, and which to ignore.

    If you are tired of answering the same questions time and time again, don't answer. APUG is a classroom with many available teachers; they will pick up the slack when you are feeling tired.

    Give the newcomers a chance. They are the future.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  12. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,211
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    +1

    There is nothing preventing people from asking for book recommendations.

    There is a big difference between being a teacher and having to teach and being thoughtful and answering a question on APUG. There is no requirement for the latter and one can choose not to offer help. I would estimate that fewer than 50% of the people that offer help ever get a thank you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  13. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    13,640
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I know few bad books, in general any book is better than our unstructured gabble here at Apug.

    And as Gerald already indicated there are even structured instructions elsewhere on the net.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

    Messages:
    6,958
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    That's my story, except I only got smarter. Still waiting for the wisdom to happen.
     
  16. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

    Messages:
    21,979
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Location:
    Southern California
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I do not help people on APUG for thanks. I am paying forward that help that others gave me when I was learning. I do not need my ego stroked.
     
  17. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    13,640
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, I translated a german phrase 1/1 into Englisch. So much about me lacking smartness and about gabble.
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,790
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Toffle, about 50% of the time, the answers are wrong.

    PE
     
  19. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,211
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I don't either but when someone helps you it is a matter of courtesy to say thank you. It doesn't cost anything. That's the way I was brought up.
     
  20. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    21,135
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    localPVD
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    really? so out of the now 1,873,778 posts here on this website more than 900thousand of them
    are wrong ?

    not sure about that ...


    what i find remarkable is that the "annoyed people who don't want to answer the questions"
    take the time to express how annoyed they are or be unhelpful &c instead of just ignoring the questions.
    who cares if the question has been asked 1000 times if bothers someone
    that it was asked 2 weeks ago by someone different or last night, ignore it... let someone
    who actually WANTS to answer it ( maybe for the 100th time in 2 months ) answer it and they will with tact and a smile and maybe
    even offer information that was thought of, invented came about since the last time he or she answered the question...
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017 at 9:37 AM
  21. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,790
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    John, I said earlier that I did not correspond in threads that were outside of my area of expertise, so your analogy or comparison is not valid. It would be more like 50% of the comments in processing, emulsion making and the like that I refer to.

    And letting someone who WANTS to answer a question may not yield the best solution to a problem.

    PE
     
  22. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    21,135
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    localPVD
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ron

    your comments then are out of place? the thread that peter started
    was about new people asking the-same-new-people-questions over and over again
    like " how do i use my light meter" " does my dark cloth have to be dark"
    "if i turn my fstop dial will it change my shutter speed" " do i need stop bath"
    and the countless questions people new
    to film tend to ask instead of searching the website for the right answer. not many newbies ask questions in
    the emulsion making area that you are talking about. the questions that newcomers ask are the ones
    that handfuls of "annoyed" apug users point out how annoyed they are, make snarky comments &c. no one is forcing cranky people to answr these questions
    they don't need to answer the questions at all, and they can let someone else with knowledge or experience or who might
    have asked the same question the week before, answer the question/s... someone who WANTS to answer them
    not by somene who wants to be annoyed by answering them. and if they are wrong, they can easily be corrected, maybe by someone
    who isn't snarky, or ticked off, and no harm is done.

    there are many ways to make photographic emulsions
    just like there are many ways to make a developer, some don't apprecaite the seat of the pants way people do things,
    there is plenty of room for the seasoned chemist and the alchemist here ...

    nice avatar ! is that the bromo seltzer guy or don martin ?
     
  23. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,211
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Don Martin the cartoonist who drew the people with hinged feet in Mad magazine. Remember the comic from my college years.
     
  24. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,790
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    John, there are threads about stops, fixes, and other process anomalies over and over again. I fully understand Peter's question. Most of these simple questions can be answered by a simple search, or the question can be refined by a simple search. In the threads in question, often arguments start over which method is best and often there is no right answer due to workflow, water type, ambient humidity and temperature etc.

    So, the question "do I need a stop bath" has been asked many many times but it should be refined as in the example "do I need a stop when doing 35mm" vs "do I need a stop when making 16x20 prints". Then we can answer more directly and with less back and forth. But then why ask when the answer is out there. (or the truth is out there!)

    I usually say "use what works for you" regardless of the remainder of my answer.

    As for answers being wrong, the answer to the above might be "use vinegar" which is wrong on an absolute basis. It should also be refined by saying "you can use white vinegar diluted to 1 - 2% if you wish to use a stop". And the answer "use citric acid" is good unless it is a color process. Wrong answers by being vague or imprecise.

    Yes, it is Don Martin. The site listing these cartoons has been closed now for some reason. I am thinking of changing back.

    PE
     
  25. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    21,135
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    localPVD
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    that is who i thought it was. BREEDEET BREEDEET
     
  26. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,790
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Dawk!