Would you like to see the return of the Kentmere Art range?

Discussion in 'Product Availability' started by Gary Holliday, Oct 18, 2007.

Would you like to see the return of Kentmere's Art range of FB papers?

  1. Yes please!

    75.0%
  2. No thanks.

    5.4%
  3. No opinion.

    19.6%
  1. Gary Holliday

    Gary Holliday Member

    Messages:
    826
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    Belfast, UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    What with the recent acquisition of Kentmere by Ilford/ Harman and whilst there have been a few comments hoping for the return of discontinued items.

    I thought I would start this thread for everyone to show their support for any possible future re-release of Kentmere Art Classic, Art Deluxe and Art Document.

    Would you like to see the return of Kentmere's former Art range of FB papers?
     
  2. Travis Nunn

    Travis Nunn Member

    Messages:
    1,602
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    Location:
    Henrico, Vir
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Art Classic was my favorite paper for lith printing. I bought all I could afford when I found out it was discontinued. I just opened my last box a few weeks ago.

    I realize if the Art line of papers is resurrected it wouldn't be exactly the same, but something similar would great.
     
  3. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,047
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2004
    Location:
    Lehi, Utah
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Chuck full of cadmium! (or at least lithable like the old stuff was [sniff])

    :smile:
     
  4. Dave Miller

    Dave Miller Member

    Messages:
    3,894
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2003
    Location:
    Middle Engla
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    As I understand the matter this paper was discontinued because the paper base was no longer available. Kentmere have, I believe, tried other bases without success. I therefore suspect that the chances of it, or a similar product being produced are minimal given the above and the commercial demand for this product. I shall husband my remaining stock for the bromoil work for which I brought it.
     
  5. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

    Messages:
    4,913
    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Location:
    Northern Aqu
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    That's right. Glory Mills was bought out by Felix Schoeller and Schoeller's range is not what it was.

    Cadmium is (entirely understandably) illegal in paper and film, and was dropped long ago. That's what killed Super-XX, incidentally. The risk in use is trivial. The risk in manufacturing is another matter.

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  6. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    18,002
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Honolulu, Ha
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I loved the surface of Charcoal R, but it wasn't an easy paper to work with. I felt that if I wanted to use it, I had to target negs specifically to that paper, otherwise it was easy for the contrast to get too high.
     
  7. jovo

    jovo Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    4,124
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Location:
    Jacksonville
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm not familiar with any of these papers, but this thread reminded me of the rich variety of paper samples that were once sitting on the counter in a camera shop near where I lived. They were all Kodak papers, and the paper base colors, and surfaces were wonderful. This isn't a recollection from decades age, but rather one from the '90's. Sad, and unfortunate. If I'd only had the gift of foresight and the bucks to buy up and hoard scores of boxes of the stuff I admired. Oh well........I'm sure there'll be a PS emulation plug in coming in the near future....ho hum!
     
  8. jeroldharter

    jeroldharter Member

    Messages:
    1,954
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I doubt that the Ilford/Kentmere combination with result in more choices. I just hope they continue Kentmere Fineprint VC fiber based paper. It is the best cold toned paper I have tried. Very consistent, responsive to toner, fairly priced, and dries flat.
     
  9. Simon R Galley

    Simon R Galley Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,048
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2005
    Location:
    Cheshire UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Dear All,

    Thanks for starting this thread:

    Firstly I repeat what has been said in our press release : 'we will continue to manufacture all monochrome paper products currently in the range'.

    It is obviously too early for us to say anything about products that have been delisted ( for whatever reason ) by KENTMERE.

    What I can do and will do is promise that I will communicate with Apuggers
    regarding the above products as soon as I have anything meaningful to say.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
     
  10. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

    Messages:
    913
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    Toronto, Ont
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It's good to see if Kentmere/Ilford can't bring back the old papers, it will continue to make the current line-up.
     
  11. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,134
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    How on earth do you read Simon's post as saying "cant".

    Other threads have plenty of information as to why Kentmere are unable to manufacture these papers. Ilford has only owned Kentmere for a week, it will take time for Ilford management to assess what can & can't be done at Kentmere.

    So lets give Simon & Ilford(Harman) a chance.

    Ian
     
  12. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

    Messages:
    913
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    Toronto, Ont
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I believe you may have misunderstood my message or I've been unclear. Regardless, I was merely try to convey that is good to see that Ilford is committed to producing the current product line, even if they couldn't/will not bring back Kentmere's old papers.
     
  13. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

    Messages:
    2,411
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2006
    Location:
    Van Buren, A
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Here is the way I see this whole thing.

    Ilford has been very accommodating to photographers by offering special cuttings of seldom-used film sizes on an annual basis, they have also reintroduced a favorite "niche" film, the SFX 200 (I think), and because of this "can do" attitude I think we almost expect something "special" from this Ilford/Harman/Kentmere group.

    I think it will take a while for Harman to completely evaluate what they have purchased. I think they WOULD consider making some of Kentmeres special papers again IF THE RAW PAPER STOCKS WERE AVAILABLE TO COAT ON. Making the paper requires a paper mill willing to make it, and in small enough quantity to be economically feasable to Harman.

    I also suspect that Kentmere has a smaller coating line, and because of this, it may actually be possible to more easily make "specialty" papers in reasonable quantities, but this is speculation on my part. The economic savings of combining both companies JUST MIGHT result in many new or reissued products to please us finicky eaters. Lets just wait and see.........
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,134
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You have probably hit the nail on the head :D

    As Ilford are also going to be manufacturing the Bergger papers then acquiring Kentmere makes a lot of sense.

    Ian
     
  16. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,948
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Location:
    South Norfol
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ian,

    From your various comments, do I take it that you worked for Kentmere Photographic at some point?

    Tom.
     
  17. Black Dog

    Black Dog Member

    Messages:
    3,238
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Location:
    Eight miles high
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'd love to see them come back, though in the case of the Art Classic on a less strongly textured base.
     
  18. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,281
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Hmmm....

    I wonder if Bergger Silver Supreme liths well? And whether it will be made in Mobberley now that Ilford will be making Bergger's papers, too?

    FWIW, I found the base of Kentmere Art Classic to be too heavily textured for my taste. I like the COT320 that the Bergger is coated on far more to my taste.
     
  19. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,134
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    No the only contact I've ever had with Kentmere has been at trade shows, and as a customer. I knew they recruited a new emulsion chemist a few years ago because I saw their adverts, which looked as if they knew exactly who they wanted. Within a very short period of time Kentmere launched variable contrast papers.

    Because I worked as a photographic chemist for 10 years I had a little contact with Kodak, they sent a sales rep who had previously worked on emulsion research at Harrow (for many years) to see what we were doing.. For a short period I trialled an Ilford emulsion, so had contact with some of their research & sales people. Alongside this I worked with a consultant who's mother was a member of the Lumiere family, the French pioneers of the Autochrome process.

    Although I changed direction in 1986 I still had contacts through work with a number of senior people in the film & paper side of the photo trade, including manufacturers & wholesalers.

    So no I don't have any inside knowledge of Kentmere. But I do know Kentmere's always been fairly well run, was able to invest in a new coating line and as other companies suffered quietly held its own. I know another member of APUG looked at their accounts filed with Companies House (UK) just over a year ago and was very surprised how healthy their sales were compared to the shrinking sales of all their competitors.

    Ian
     
  20. Gary Holliday

    Gary Holliday Member

    Messages:
    826
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    Belfast, UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Surely there is a method. Foma can produce a similar variable contrast version of a textured art paper. I haven't opened my Bergger "silver supreme" pack yet, but from what I read it's on a textured cotton base.

    Some didn't like the strong texture, but the rougher the better for me! It offered something unique which is a refreshing change.
     
  21. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    18,002
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Honolulu, Ha
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Well, it needs to be an acid free paper that doesn't interact in a negative way chemically with the emulsion, holds up to wet processing, and is available in a form suited to Kentmere's coating equipment, which means it probably needs to be available in long rolls, unlike many of the papers used for handcoating, which are molded in sheets.
     
  22. Mark Layne

    Mark Layne Member

    Messages:
    919
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
    Ah well
    I guess all the old process printing done with Cadmium Yellow will soon be condemned. Come to think of it there should be some cheap old master paintings around if we question their content. It depresses me to think that my generation is now considered dangerous and discardable.
    Mark
     
  23. Martin Reed

    Martin Reed Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    325
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Location:
    North London
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Like everything to do with coating emulsion, it don't come easy. The Foma products 542 & 532 both used the same base as the old Kentmere Art Classic, the base was discontinued but Foma's stock lasted longer than that of Kentmere. Although at Silverprint we still have good stock of the finished Foma products, there is no immediate replacement - get it while it lasts!

    Going back some years, before Art Classic was conceived we worked with Kentmere to attempt coating an art paper. They got beyond testing small scale coating but the experiment failed at the point of coating full width 40-50" rolls; the dimensional consistency of the paper was not up to running through the large scale coating process. Bergger seem to have been unique in producing a consistent material on 'art' cotton rag paper - maybe it was coated on a narrow width system?
     
  24. cao

    cao Member

    Messages:
    188
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Shooter:
    35mm
    What I'm curious about is why it seems that all paper with anything other than a gloss, dead matte, or ugly pearl seems to be vanishing. Is there anything to do but horde or coat? Neither is particularly attractive to me.
     
  25. aldevo

    aldevo Member

    Messages:
    895
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Location:
    Cambridge, M
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    With present technology the risk in manufacturing Cadmium is certainly less than what is used to produce a Lithium-Ion battery. The major danger from Cadmium during processing is inhalation and that is not terribly difficult to counteract as it's a concern with many different materials. Most iron ore processing spews cadmium dust all over the place, frankly.

    In any case, you'll find that Cadmium use is still very extensive in specialized, commerical batteries and is very heavily used in electroplating and in the production of PVC.


    I suspect the real reason that Cadmium may have disappeared is that you can't easily store large amounts of it and the price volatility tends to be ridiculous. It can swing 300% in a quarter in either direction.
     
  26. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

    Messages:
    2,411
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2006
    Location:
    Van Buren, A
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I think the "texture" was produced by a set of texturizing rollers the paper stock was run through, and these rollers are a sort of "die" which has a limited life span and very expensive to maintain, and with the limited sales of special surface papers and the volume requirements of a coating run, it just got too cost-prohibitive for manufacturers to offer these special textures in photo paper.

    I am sure you wouldn't want to be paying $5 to $10 an 8x10 sheet for photo paper.