WTF? Whats turning my TF4 orange?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by JBrunner, Jan 30, 2007.

  1. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Okay, so I just got my new to me Unicolor drums for doing 8x10, so I can stop being a bat. I also just got some WD2D+ to try from PF and thought I'd give'em a try together, and yes I've heard it doesn't like tubes, and I have heard from others that it's fine. (In my case here's what happened- J&C 100, WD2D+, 1:1:50 250ml, 8 min on reversing motor, developer came out very oxidized as expected, 250ml water stop (3 water changes the second time as my initial thought was that developer was somehow carrying through to the fix), then 250ml TF4 fix for 2 min. When I poured the fixer out it looked like HC110. It still smells the same, and checks good, except it is orange. WTF? Is this normal with WD2D? The negs are very nice- no streaks or other rollo problems, and appear to have good stain and densities appropriate to a pyro neg, assuming they are properly fixed.
    I have accomplished this twice in a row now, so its not a fluke. Does this developer need a different fixer? Does it mean nothing?

    Any ideas?
     
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  2. rrankin

    rrankin Member

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    I use pyrocat-hd and my TF4 usually comes out pinkish. I suspect it is something in the local water as I use tap water, but it doesn't seem to affect anything as far as I can tell.

    Cheers,
    Richard
     
  3. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, I did one more, ran allot of water through during the stop, and made absolutely sure no developer was carrying through, and the fix still turned orange, so it is a reaction to fixing the film. Hmmm.... I'm gonna shoot a neg tomorrow and tray develop it, and see if this happens.

    The first neg of the batch is dry, so here is a quick scan... looks good, to me anyway...
     

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  4. fhovie

    fhovie Subscriber

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    The orange is the stain from the Gallol that is in the emulsion when it is fixed. It is normal and is not a problem.
     
  5. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Thanks for the responses guys. Is this exclusive to WD2D? Roll processing with any Pyrogallol? It doesn't happen when I tray process with PMK.
     
  6. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Good? it looks sweet as hell!
     
  7. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I do Wd2d myself. I use a water rinse several times for a stop, then I use Kodak Rapid Fix without the hardener. My fixer gets yelloish also. Doesn't seem to effect the performance of the fixer at all, or its life.
     
  8. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    It's not exclusive to to Pyrogallol, some folks have seen orange TF-4 following print development in amidol.

    “I had a small amount of TF4 fixer initially and that was a bust as the print and solution immediately went orange/yellow along with the print. I mixed up some Kodak fixer and all was fine from that point forward.”

    http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/azoforum/one.asp?ID=9969&PgNo=&GID=9969&CID=5
     
  9. MMfoto

    MMfoto Member

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    That is a gorgeous image.
     
  10. MMfoto

    MMfoto Member

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    What does WD2D+ look like when it's oxidized?
     
  11. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    When mixed up it is a pale orange/yellow, when oxidized it is a dark dirty orange.
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I think it could be one of two things.

    Either too much carryover of developer into the fix or retention of some of the dyes in the film which then wash out in the fix.

    Some of the dyes used in films, change color when alkaline. They might be blue or purple in the film, but orange in the alkaline fix.

    These are both just guesses.

    PE
     
  13. climbabout

    climbabout Member

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    location

    Just out of curiousity - is that image from the Alabama hills near Lone Pine?
    Tim
     
  14. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Sorry Tim,

    I was doing a little research back here and realized I never saw your question. It is in Arches in Utah, right over by the Parade of Elephants.
     
  15. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    I get a tinge in the fix when using Ilford Rapid Fix/Hypam. It seems to disappear on sitting as the fix loses the color in a couple days. I've always figured it was a dye from the film that was coming out in the fix, and that the hypo or sulfite in the fix that was breaking down the dye.
     
  16. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Since I OPed this thread about a year ago I have been using the same things. The fixer still turns orange, but I can find no lack of performance or ill effects. I am, however, thinking of going back to PMK but increasing Sol A for rolling development, or trying Rollo-Pyro. IDK, but I'm out of developer, so a decision must be made.
     
  17. noseoil

    noseoil Member

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    "Use the pyrocat, Luke..."

    I would certainly give formulary's pyrocat-hd in glycol a try, if you're thinking about changing something. It will open up a whole new world for you with minimal agitation or semi-stand development. I think it is worth using with the roller, but slow development is where it really shines. There's plenty of information available now to get a starting number or two and see how you like it. tim
     
  18. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    Are you still using J&C 100 - or are you using another film with the same orange color? I always saw a lot of dye when using J&C 100 - in the presoak, the developer, the stop and the fix, although I don't use WD2D nor TF-4, so I didn't see orange. As PE said, could be the dye.
    juan
     
  19. Murray@uptowngallery

    Murray@uptowngallery Member

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    Yeah, with results like that, I wouldn't care what color my chems turned! Wow
     
  20. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Orange, to greater or lesser degrees. Orange with FP4, HP5, & J&C100. Pre-soaked or not.
     
  21. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    As I said earlier, some developing agents can color the fixer if enough is carried over. Usually, the color is orange or yellow.

    PE