zeiss opton? planar? xenar? 3,5, 2.8?

Discussion in 'Medium Format Cameras and Accessories' started by Dave Wooten, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Subscriber

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    Can any members out there shed some light on the above lenses? I am looking for MF camera Rollei and notice these different lenses were used on the Rollei twin lens.

    From a user standpoint are any of these lenses more desirable than others?

    Thanks
    Dave in Vegas
     
  2. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Not a Rollei user, but in general, Planars are nicer than Xenars, but they are very similar to Xenotars.
     
  3. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Subscriber

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    Professor thanks,


    1. what was the lens on the folder I saw in your office...I thought it was 105 mm?

    2. Does the planar have better resolution?

    3. Does opton designate a formula?

    Thanks again
     
  4. elekm

    elekm Member

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    Zeiss-Opton means the lens was made in Carl Zeiss's Oberkochen facility. So Opton really just referred to a location.

    If it's a Zeiss-Opton lens, it probably is a Tessar. The Xenar is more or less the same lens as the Tessar. It's the same design made by Schneider-Kreuznach.

    The Planar replaced the Tessar as the standard lens on medium format cameras and continues to be the standard lens for medium format cameras. In fact, the Planar design is really the standard lens for most cameras. Like the Xenar, the Xenotar is the Schneider version of the Planar.

    Either will have excellent resolution at f/8 or smaller. The Tessar (and Xenar) tend to give you round backgrounds when shooting closeups at larger apertures. The Planar doesn't.
     
  5. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Subscriber

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    thanks Elekm,

    Dave in Vegas
     
  6. jon koss

    jon koss Subscriber

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    As long as we are talking about coated lenses and typical shooting apertures I would just go for the cleanest lens. Most classic Rolleis are heading for 40+ years old, so condition is a bigger variable than ever. I have used Rolleis with Planars, Tessars, Xenars, etc. over the years. All are great. Technique, tripod use, straight equipment and careful development are the real-world determinants of sharpness. If you are looking for simplicity, durability, portability, etc., then any clean postwar Rollei TLR should bring a smile to your face. If you are looking for monster blowups with shattering clarity, then a clean current Hassy w/Planar has better odds of meeting your needs. Basically, a 1999 Mercedes is more likely to perform well on a cross-country trip than a 1962 Rolls. Just one opinion!
    jk
     
  7. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The folder I had in the office was a Voigtlander Bessa II (6x9) with a 105mm/f:3.5 Color-Heliar.

    Planars tend to be sharper wide open than Tessar-types (like Xenars).
     
  8. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

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    CZ Oberkochen used the name Opton during the period it and CZ Jena were engaged in a lawsuit over rights to the name Carl Zeiss. Basically, Optons are early post-WWII CZ lenses from Oberkochen. I've seen it applied to several designs, not just tessars, including Biogons.

    Cheers,

    Dan
     
  9. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Subscriber

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    The shared knowledge out there is incredible-I do believe one could compile a book on any given photographic subject with this APUG family

    Thanks

    Dave in Vegas
     
  10. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    There are Opton lenses for the Rollei SL66 (SLR), so they were also made some time later than the early post-WWII period. There were even HFT coated ones, so they are later than most of my SL66 lenses. See:

    http://www.sl66.com/sl66_lens_details/oberkochen.htm
     
  11. elekm

    elekm Member

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    When it comes to the Rolleiflex TLR, I can't recall ever seeing any Zeiss-Opton Planars, though it's possible that there were some Zeiss-Opton Planars on Rolleiflexes. I mean lenses marked Zeiss-Opton Planar.
    And it's correct that other lenses in addition to the Tessar were marked Zeiss-Opton, including those for the SL66, the Contax RF, medium format folders and others.
     
  12. Seele

    Seele Member

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    First of all, assuming we are talking about lenses on Rolleiflex twin-lens cameras:

    After the war, "Operation Paperclip" by the US forces literally forced a number of Carl Zeiss staff members from Jena to the American zone (along with substantial equipment) so as to establish a new Carl Zeiss operation there, knowing that Jena would have to be handed over to Soviet administration. At first this new firm could not use the Carl Zeiss name when the right of use was still very much up in the air, so all its products were marked Zeiss-Opton, until 1954.

    I have a 1951 model Rolleiflex with a Zeiss-Opton Tessar, and found it to be quite unuseable at first; after examining its construction, and communications with fellow collectors, it seemed obvious that, at least for some of the lenses supplied to Rollei and the new Zeiss Ikon in Stuttgart (formerly Contessa-Nettel), the lens cells by Zeiss-Opton were badly designed to the point of being appalling, to the point that, after a few decades, the lens can deteriate to the point of not being able to produce an image.

    The Tessar design consists of four elements in three groups, two air-spaced single elements before the diaphragm (in this case, shutter as well) and a cemented doublet behind it. Like any lens cell, the groups have to be held securely, and Jena, no matter pre or post war, did a good job. But the Zeiss-Opton version of this lens, the groups were not even mechanically supported and spaced correctly.

    The rear group should really be dropped into a cell, and its edge either turned to lock it in position, or a locking ring screwed in to secure it. But in this case, the rear group was dropped in and glue was squirted around it. After a period the glue moved, and the inner element, while still attached to the outer element, slipped out of alignment, causing severe decentration of the whole system, and at the same time, the whole group also slipped out of its cell.

    At the front, the normal way is to have the two elements spun into its own cells and then screwed together, or the inner element spun into the end of a longer cell "tub", the larger front element dropped in, and then a locking ring screwed in from the front. But in this case, while the front element was held in position by a locking ring (which makes it looks very secure) the inner element was again held by glue which moved after a number of years, completely upsetting the optical configuration.

    It took me a fair while and some extensive work to get the lens back into working order again, the cost was not insubstantial; so in that sense it put me off Zeiss-Opton!

    But back to the original question:

    Generally speaking, pre-war Rollei twin-lens cameras use four-element Tessar and three-element Triotar lenses; after the war it switched supplier to the new Zeiss firm in Oberkochen who supplied Tessars which are optically good but likely to be mechanically inferior than pre-war ones, until about 1954. For the Automat and the T-series, Rollei used four-element lenses of f/3.5 maximum aperture, and for the more advanced models, five-element lenses of either f/3.5 or f/2.8 maximum apertures, and those are Planars and Schneider Xenotars. The first 2.8 (model A) used a very stretched Zeiss-Opton four-element Tessar and it was not satisfactory, so for the model B Rollei returned to Jena to get its Biometar which is, in design and construction, the same as the Xenotar. It was only from the model C onwards that Rollei used either Planar and Xenotar f/2.8, depending on whether Zeiss or Schneider had them ex-stock ready for delivery on the day.

    Being the "junior model", the Rolleicord first use three-element Triotars but after the war it matured dramatically and upgraded to using Schneider Xenar four-element lens, which is also a worthy performer.
     
  13. fotod69

    fotod69 Member

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    Rolleiflex large prints

    I've owned a few Rollei cameras and I make up to 20x20 black and white prints and I found my Rollei 3.5 F with a 6 element Planar has done the best job I've ever used in MF. Of course the camera is in great shape and I've had Harry Fleenor make any repairs including a Maxwell screen and focus adjustment. I was quire surprised to get these results having shot 4x5 for many years. I found best performance at F 5.6 or 8. I did own a fine 2.8 F but actually preferred that look of the 3.5.
    Good luck.
    Dennis
     
  14. pgomena

    pgomena Member

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    I've owned a Rollei 2.8C/Xenotar for more than 20 years and have put probably 250 rolls of film through it. It's a wonderfully sharp lens, makes almost bleedingly sharp, contrasty images at f/8. At f/22 it's still sharp and takes on a smoothness I can't easily describe. Having almost never used an aperture wider than f/5.6, I can't attest to lens qualities or "distortions". I can't compare it to a Planar of similar vintage, and I'm sure that the Planar has wonderful qualities of its own. Either way, you can't go wrong. You're choosing between a Mercedes and a BMW.

    Peter Gomena
     
  15. gnashings

    gnashings Inactive

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    The chance of meeting another person who knows what "operation paperclip" was is slim enough - seeing it used in reference to photography blew me away! I know this is off topic - but I have to say, APUG is like a good book - no, like a good (and massive!) library! Seriously - the combined knowledge here not only could, but shouldbe compiled into a book!

    Thanks for making me less dumb every time I sign on!:smile:

    Peter.
     
  16. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

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    Operation Paperclip

    The US took the key staff from the Jena factory to western Germany, but not the plant and tools, or the optical glass the Russians got them.
     
  17. fotod69

    fotod69 Member

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    I have owned Rolleiflex cameras with 3.5F Planar, a 2.8F Planar and a 3.5 Tessar. They were all fine but there are differences. All cameras were in like new condition. My favorite is the 3.5F Planar as I love the resolution and contrast from about 4.5 through 16. It's the 6 element version and is about the sharpest lens I've used. The 2.8 Planar lens was about as sharp but at the wider apertures has a softness that can be very beautiful and becomes tack sharp at smaller apertures. You can see the look of the 2.8 in images by Richard Avedon. The 3.5 Tessar was also very sharp but had a slight falloff in the corners at wide apertures. The Planars seem to have finer tonal transitions as well and a flatter field with the 3.5. Anyway, I went with the F with the 3.5 Planar but they are all fine and none would be disappointing. Good luck.
    Dennis
     
  18. ricksplace

    ricksplace Member

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    I have a Rolleiflex "T" with a 3.5 Tessar. I usually shoot at f8-f11, and this lens is painfully sharp. When I compare it to my 2.8/80 Biometar, 2.8/80 Xenotar, or 3.5/105 Colour Heliar, I really can't see much difference. All lenses are in excellent condition, so lens condition is not a factor. The "T" has one of the latest formulations of the Tessar design. As mentioned in the above posts, some of the earlier tessars were not as sharp as the later designs.

    I have a shot that I took with the Rolleiflex of an old outhouse where the paint is flaking off the wood. People often remark that the 8X10 looks so sharp that it seems you can pick the paint chips off the print with your fingernail.

    If price is a consideration for you, the prices for Rolleiflexes with the Planar are significantly higher than models with the Tessar. So long as you don't shoot wide open, a Tessar in good condition will give you outstanding results.
     
  19. David H. Bebbington

    David H. Bebbington Inactive

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    Personally I'm a big fan of Zeiss Tessars, having owned 4 examples (current one bought just a couple of weeks ago). These give a contrasty and therefore sharp-looking image even at full aperture in the center, it takes quite a bit of stopping down for the corner sharpness to become respectable and it never quite matches the center (although I only really noticed this when I made some 24" square prints). Never owned any other Rolleiflex, did have a 2.8C with a Planar to use in one studio, found it had a flatter field, higher resolution but less contrast (another contributor says he likes the contrast of his, the example I was using was not in pristine condition, but I also found the Zeiss lenses of a Hasselblad 500C I used were less contrasty than the Tessars).

    I consider a Schneider Xenar to be as good as a Tessar, I've got quite a few LF examples. The thing to watch out for is the way German camera makers worked in the 50s and 60s: First they would at great expense design a great camera (like a Rolleiflex or Leica M3), then they would find this was too expensive, so they would spend even more more cutting a couple of features to make a cheaper version. In the case of the Rolleicord, this meant an uncoupled film wind (not too much of a problem) but also a diabolical shutter release - I ignore the shutter release on my Rolleicord and use a short cable release even for hand-held work. The upside is that Rolleicords, while being capable of excellent work, seem to be very unfashionable at the moment and and cheap to buy.
     
  20. Sandeep

    Sandeep Member

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    The Zeiss Planar and Schneider Xenotar are considered equal in quality with some feeling the Xenotar may be slightly better. The Tessar and Xenar are considered decent lenses but not on the same level as the Planar and Xenotar, but close when stopped down to f8-11. Whether you get a f2.8 or f3.5 is really your personal choice and depends on the light levels you will be shooting in if handheld.