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Photo Engineer
01-22-2012, 11:00 AM
Certainly, dicarboxylic acid anhydrides will crosslink polyols. Or at least should.

PE

Bob Carnie
01-22-2012, 11:10 AM
That is exactly what I am thinking, not only taking advantage of the best of PT PD with highlight detail, but as well the best of carbon which is its incredible shadow detail.

Pt Pd will give warm highlights and the carbon can be tinged blue(cold) to give an incredible split print


Ron, do you think a PVOH/PVAC overcoat would work with Pt/Pd with such a paper?
Bob, I am also "toying" with the idea to combine Pt/Pd with carbon to get the best of both processes....never done it though. What I wonder most is how it would look like when you have different tones deriving from both emulsions..perhaps like a split-toned print?

dwross
01-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Since this is the Silver Gelatin Emulsion subforum, and the OP topic is the Formulary's baryta, I'll take a chance and weigh in.

Why not make a silver gelatin paper and split-tone it?
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Toning/ToningPart1.

And, the glossy baryta coats beautifully (although glossy isn't to my personal taste.) An example is at the bottom of this page.
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/PaperAndCoating/PaperAndCoatingPart3.htm

A lot of people have held that particular print and not believed it isn't commercial. (Actually, I don't consider that a 'plus' in its favor. I think alternative printers want there to be some sign that their art didn't come ready-made out of the box. But, that's another story.)

dwross
01-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Hi All,

I have received a couple of really nice emails this morning -- one from a personal friend, and one from an e-penpal. They both very kindly pointed out the fallacy of my personal photo-bubble. Most people, even those here, no longer have darkrooms. Pt/Pd and carbon printing don't require one -- just water and a yellow bug light. Also (according to my friends and in all honesty, my observation, too) most people are going from digital image capture to inkject negative. Very few people are even developing film much less making silver gelatin emulsions, no matter how much they may want to. (The "how much they want to" part may be only kindness on the part of my friends. I have wonderful friends :).) Anyway, my apologies for what looks like high-handedness (even to me, this morning.)

I hope folks buy PE's book. Maybe read The Light Farm (for me, the fun and satisfaction just get better and better -- which is my only excuse for getting annoying here.) Take a George Eastman House (GEH) class. Or two. A workshop there is about way more than the class material. Who knows how long the place can afford to keep going. If you have the means and opportunity, you should take advantage sooner, rather than chance later.

d
www.thelightfarm.com

Bob Carnie
01-23-2012, 10:57 AM
Speaking for myself, I am awaiting 200 sheets of 8x10 250 sheets of 4x5 and 50 rolls of trix arriving this thrus night from England, we will be processing ,Contacting and then making silver prints for the next month.... Darkroom not dead in Toronto, and we plan to keep it that way.

Hi All,

I have received a couple of really nice emails this morning -- one from a personal friend, and one from an e-penpal. They both very kindly pointed out the fallacy of my personal photo-bubble. Most people, even those here, no longer have darkrooms. Pt/Pd and carbon printing don't require one -- just water and a yellow bug light. Also (according to my friends and in all honesty, my observation, too) most people are going from digital image capture to inkject negative. Very few people are even developing film much less making silver gelatin emulsions, no matter how much they may want to. (The "how much they want to" part may be only kindness on the part of my friends. I have wonderful friends :).) Anyway, my apologies for what looks like high-handedness (even to me, this morning.)

I hope folks buy PE's book. Maybe read The Light Farm (for me, the fun and satisfaction just get better and better -- which is my only excuse for getting annoying here.) Take a George Eastman House (GEH) class. Or two. A workshop there is about way more than the class material. Who knows how long the place can afford to keep going. If you have the means and opportunity, you should take advantage sooner, rather than chance later.

d
www.thelightfarm.com

mark
01-23-2012, 11:05 AM
Anyone knoe anything about prices?

mdm
01-23-2012, 02:21 PM
I am interested in 200 sheets 11x14 if the price is ok. Please post an email address and price because I am not calling from New Zealand.

Thanks
David

Photo Engineer
01-23-2012, 03:35 PM
Dave;

Contact the Formulary via the redirection icon on APUG when it pops up.

PE

T-grain
01-24-2012, 02:55 PM
being not a Pt/Pd printer (yet), what is the main issue with Pt/Pd on gelatin? is it a too deep penetration of the solution into the sizing or is it due to the reducing ability of gelatin in relation to Pt/Pd salts?
thanks



I have been using Baryta paper (and advocating its use) for coating any gelatin based material and some non-gelatin based materials for several years now. I have coated cyanotypes and others, but Pt/Pd does not work as noted above. Unless - you put on a sizing layer to isolate the gelatin.

Baryta is made up of gelatin mixed with Barium Sulfate coated on DW photograde paper. I have samples of these products and am very very happy with them. I have posted prints in the Emulsion forum.

As for costs? Contact the Formulary. I have no idea what these may cost.

PE

Photo Engineer
01-24-2012, 02:56 PM
Well, it has been several years now, but IIRC, the Pt or Pd Oxalate reacts with gelatin. It forms a nice "gum" that looks like sillly putty. If you try coating on it, same thing! Ask one of the posters here for more information.

PE

T-grain
01-24-2012, 03:05 PM
thanks Ron!
so, the problem is something in between my two hypotheses I guess :)

I did quite a lot of van dykes in the past years (on unsized paper), using also oxalate (Mike Ware version)-so I guess van dyke supposed to have the same issue with baryta paper? what do you think? but yes, the best is the empirical answer :)

Photo Engineer
01-24-2012, 03:15 PM
I think that I may have some VDB here that worked, but that has been years ago. Not sure. The VDB worked fine.

PE

doughowk
01-24-2012, 05:15 PM
As to pt/pd on Baryta paper, Craig Koshyk has a booklet on his procedures for doing just that (see http://www.craigkoshyk.ca/Books.html ). I've only tried a couple of times with marginal results; but hope to try again with some fresh Baryta.

gmikol
01-25-2012, 04:42 PM
Just got off the phone with Sherry @ the Formulary, and I got pricing info:

11x14 100 sheets : $88/box
20x24 50 sheets : $145/box

If anyone's interested and hasn't ordered yet, do it soon, like today (1/25/2012) or tomorrow AM (Thurs., 1/26/2012). It sounds like they are planning on finalizing the order very soon.

--Greg

CraigK
02-06-2012, 12:01 PM
As to pt/pd on Baryta paper, Craig Koshyk has a booklet on his procedures for doing just that (see http://www.craigkoshyk.ca/Books.html ). I've only tried a couple of times with marginal results; but hope to try again with some fresh Baryta.

Thanks for the shout-out doughowk. My book is now available as an ebook from Blurb http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/2943388. The regular paper book is still available too http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/1819950

The main issue with normal pt/pd solutions and the gelatin/baryta coating on fixed-out FB papers is that they don't get along very well. But if you make a few tweaks to the solution and the coating method, you can convince them kiss and make up. None of the tweaks are difficult or even very significant individually. But together, they make a huge difference. The main two are: A: adding some Tween 20 to your pt/pd solutions and B: using a puddle pusher and then a brush (or just a Richardson's brush) to really work the solutions into the paper.

Tween acts like a sort of peace-maker between the solutions and the paper's coating and convinces them to play nice with each other. The puddle-pusher and foam brush (or just a magic Richardson's brush) step is also crucial and requires some elbow grease compared to the delicate tip-toe coating of cotton papers. Anywho, it is all explained in my booklet, with photos. I hope to post a video very soon as well.

Edit: forgot to add. I've tried the uncoated paper from Formulary for my method. It did not work very well at all. The pd/pt solutions sort of soaked right into the paper or something..they did not get soaked into anything like the gelatin layer in fixed-out baryta paper. Whatever is left out of Formulary paper surface, it is something that my method seems to require.... is it a gelatin layer? Not sure.

Photo Engineer
02-06-2012, 02:08 PM
Fixed out Photo paper used for Pt/Pd has the average structure below:

/gelatin coat/emulsion coat/baryta in gelatin coat/FB paper.

The paper in this discussion is as follows:

/Garyta in gelatin/ FG paper.

Both are hot press FB papers. Both are hardened to some extent.

Hope this helps.

PE

doughowk
02-06-2012, 06:02 PM
Similar to Craig, also had problems with straight Baryta paper for pt/pd - even with double my normal solution, the paper soaked it up without much effort. Then print had a grey vail after exposure, dev & wash.
Plan on sizing some Kozo paper for pt/pd printing, so will try sizing the Baryta. Also plan on using the Baryta for Collodion POP.

Photo Engineer
02-06-2012, 06:10 PM
Mark Ostaerman uses this paper for Collodion POP and teaches it in his GEH class. Marvelous stuff. Talk to APUG member Peter Schrager who has made some superb prints using this paper.

PE

CraigK
02-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Fixed out Photo paper used for Pt/Pd has the average structure below: /gelatin coat/emulsion coat/baryta in gelatin coat/FB paper. The paper in this discussion is as follows: /Garyta in gelatin/ FG paper. Both are hot press FB papers. Both are hardened to some extent. Hope this helps. PE

Thanks PE!

That leads me to two conclusions:

1. With my method, the pt/pd solutions find a home in the top layer(s) of regular FB photo paper. But only after the silver that was included in those layers when the paper was made is fixed and washed away. So the ideal thing would be to use a paper that has the exact same structure of /gelatin coat/emulsion coat/baryta in gelatin coat/FB paper, but without the silver (or even without the entire emulsion coat?). If such a paper existed, you'd not have to waste time and money fixing and washing the silver out.

2. Since the Formulary paper in this discussion does not have the top layer(s) of regular FB photo paper it doesn't offer a suitable home for the kind of pt/pd solutions used to coat cotton papers. A work-around might be coat the paper with a gelatin layer before applying the pt/pd solutions. Or you could try to work out some sort of emulsion, something like pt/pd + gelatin or some other substance in which the pt/pd could be suspended.

gmikol
05-04-2012, 09:31 PM
Just wanted to update this thread to mention that my order for the Formulary baryta arrived today. 1 50-pack of 20x24. Coated by Ilford/Harman.

I don't see it on the Formulary site, but if anybody missed the group buy, it may be worth giving them a call to find out if they ordered extras.

FYI...

--Greg