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benjiboy
02-26-2012, 05:57 AM
How the Nazi genocide differed from all previous and subsequent ones was it was on a vast industrial scale.

MDR
02-26-2012, 07:10 AM
Benji you're absolutely right but I feel that there is a danger that we will forget all other massacres because of the scale of the NAZI killing industry. It's already the case with the victims of the Nazis we are often forgetting the russians civilians that were killed in the concentration camps more than 6 millions or the Roma and Sinti, the Women accused of adultery (the only group with a near 100% mortality rate) that were used in the concentration camp brothels (yes they did exists and were used by prisoners that did good work mostly spying on others) and are still not officialy considered victims of the third reich death machine.

Only looking at the third reich makes us blind to other genocides or medical experiments that are sometimes still done. We currently have a scandal in Austria involving experimentation with malaria on children from state run children homes starting in the 1960 until it seems quiet recently and Austria is not the only country to have done so. Its on a smaller scale but no less horiffic especially after the third reich, one would think that the practice of illegal medical experiments on children would have stopped.
A friend of mine was with austrian military intelligence in Rwanda and still has nightmares from what he has seen. Pretty much all european as well as the US government had a military presence in Rwanda and they did nothing because the were to busy selling machets so that seven year old children could kill their neighbors. Around a million dead later the UNO declares their action a failure well some countries did their best to bloc the UNO in order to sell arms. Dead is dead it doesn't matter wether they were killed in an industrial fashion trough gas chambers or killed by a seven year old drugged out child with a machet hacking them to pieces.

We should never forget any genocide of the 20th and the genocides to come in the 21st century and try our best to stop them from happening, incidently after killing Gaddafi the UNO does nothing against the ethnic cleansing ( people with dark skin)in Lybia by the former rebel militia.

So my question do we learn from the past?

Dominik
(praying that we learn from the past and stop bad things to happen in the future)

Steve Smith
02-26-2012, 07:13 AM
When one answers the call to public service, he should remember that he temporarily assumes a LOWER station in life.

Agreed. As my father used to say about government officials, councillors, police officers, etc. "They are our servants, not our masters".


Steve.

altair
02-26-2012, 09:43 AM
Only looking at the third reich makes us blind to other genocides or medical experiments that are sometimes still done.

Well said Dominik. But let's not also forget the atrocities & cruelty that are STILL being done to animals in laboratories the world over. And the animals in shelters, and the animals in the streets. And farm animals. Yes, they're not human..but does that mean they deserve anything less from us?

Worker 11811
02-26-2012, 09:56 PM
How the Nazi genocide differed from all previous and subsequent ones was it was on a vast industrial scale.

As opposed to places like Rwanda where victims were lined up by the sides of the roads, summarily machine gunned then their bodies were simply left laying on the ground to rot.

tomalophicon
02-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Well said Dominik. But let's not also forget the atrocities & cruelty that are STILL being done to animals in laboratories the world over. And the animals in shelters, and the animals in the streets. And farm animals. Yes, they're not human..but does that mean they deserve anything less from us?

So stop using them in your film and paper.

altair
02-27-2012, 08:46 AM
tomalaphicon: That means I'll have to go back to digital. Been there, done that, ain't going back.

It's a shame film & paper is made using gelatin...if there was a 'vegetarian' sort of film/paper, I'd grab it in an instant.

MattKing
02-27-2012, 02:07 PM
I was at the most recent meeting of the Northwest Alternative Photography group in Bellevue, Washington, USA.

One of the subjects of discussion was one member's experiments with developing alternatives to gelatin for various alternative processes.

The technical details were a bit beyond my knowledge of chemistry :), but the discussion was fascinating.

benjiboy
02-28-2012, 07:09 AM
As opposed to places like Rwanda where victims were lined up by the sides of the roads, summarily machine gunned then their bodies were simply left laying on the ground to rot.
I didn't write that the N.A.Z.I genocide was the only one that was a heinous crime and that any previous or subsequent ones were any less repellent, only that The Holocaust was premeditated exploitation, mass murder on an industrial scale using production line principal in gas chambers and ovens in which even the victims possessions clothes, jewellery and gold teeth fillings , and even their bodys used to make soap from and the proceeds of the sale used to swell the S.S. coffers.

stavrosk
02-28-2012, 07:27 AM
This is a photography forum. Let us not turn the conversation into sociopolitical debate.

altair
02-28-2012, 09:31 AM
I was at the most recent meeting of the Northwest Alternative Photography group in Bellevue, Washington, USA.

One of the subjects of discussion was one member's experiments with developing alternatives to gelatin for various alternative processes.

The technical details were a bit beyond my knowledge of chemistry :), but the discussion was fascinating.

I'd have love to be able to hear that discussion on alternatives to gelatin, Matt. What kind of 'look' does the gelatin-less alt process produce?

MattKing
02-29-2012, 12:40 AM
I'd have love to be able to hear that discussion on alternatives to gelatin, Matt. What kind of 'look' does the gelatin-less alt process produce?

As I understand it, the results are still "works in progress" :)

Vaughn
02-29-2012, 01:00 AM
I'd have love to be able to hear that discussion on alternatives to gelatin, Matt. What kind of 'look' does the gelatin-less alt process produce?

As far as printing methods without gelatin, there are many -- cyanotypes, platinum, Van Dykes, etc, that are on various watercolor papers, but probably you know this. Direct prints (photograms) would eliminate the need for gelatin based films.

There are polymer plates for other printing processes -- I wonder if that technology could be used for photographic purposes?

altair
02-29-2012, 09:45 AM
As far as printing methods without gelatin, there are many -- cyanotypes, platinum, Van Dykes, etc, that are on various watercolor papers, but probably you know this. Direct prints (photograms) would eliminate the need for gelatin based films.

There are polymer plates for other printing processes -- I wonder if that technology could be used for photographic purposes?

Yes, I've heard of cyanotypes, Van Dyke prints, platinum, palladium ,etc..but regrettably I've never tried my hand at making one. I don't print much, perhaps just once a month, and even then it'll just be making prints of 1 or 2 negatives. I'm more interested in an alternative to gelatin in the image capture process, instead of in the printing stage. Perhaps it's time to try wet plate collodion? :p

Steve Roberts
02-29-2012, 10:09 AM
Agreed. As my father used to say about government officials, councillors, police officers, etc. "They are our servants, not our masters".


Steve.

And indeed this is why police officers who remember what they are taught in training should still address the person they've just nabbed, however heinous the crime, as "Sir" if they are doing their job properly.

Steve

Worker 11811
02-29-2012, 10:48 AM
Additionally, cops are supposed to remain as neutral as possible during the process. They are not judge, jury or executioner. They are simply the "point guards" of the legal process.

If they start expressing judgments about the people they deal with in their official capacity, they stand to spoil the case.
If a cop makes a disparaging remark during an arrest, the defense could come back and say that the defendant was singled out or treated differently because of appearance, race or some other form of prejudice. If that argument stands up in court, a guilty man could go free for a cop's lack of ability to bite his lip when it's necessary.

I would also say that other government officials should "bite their lips" when acting in official capacity. They should also put aside their prejudices as much as they can. (Very, very few humans can put aside 100% of their prejudices, 100% of the time.)

Back to the topic sentence... We all know that Hitler didn't bother to put aside his prejudice. In fact, it was the main plank in his platform.
Because of that, an entire country spun out of control and nearly took the rest of the world with it.

That's one reason why I say that elected officials need to remember that they were elected to do the peoples' business, not their own.
Had that been followed, Hitler might not have come to power and, subsequently set the world on end.

(Okay... If somebody at the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts had seen fit to give him a set of paint brushes, maybe he never would have sought political office in the first place but that's another story for another time.)

Bringing this back to modern times, I think this idea needs to be reinforced with politicians, today.
I don't care if they are Democrat, Republican, Labour, Tory or Martian. Our entire system of government needs to be brought back under the People's control

I just hope that things like this, these pictures of Hitler living high on the hog while the rest of the country suffers through depression and descends into war, are enough to shock people into getting back to basics.

Vaughn
02-29-2012, 12:25 PM
...I'm more interested in an alternative to gelatin in the image capture process, instead of in the printing stage. Perhaps it's time to try wet plate collodion? :p

Fertilized or unfertilized eggs? ;)

altair
03-01-2012, 09:20 AM
You mean albumen, Vaughn?

Vaughn
03-01-2012, 09:45 AM
You mean albumen, Vaughn?

Whoops, my mistake!