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Robert Ridyard
03-09-2012, 09:29 AM
The fact sheet for DD-X gives the following information: "Used at 1+4 for one shot processing DD-X will develop 16 135/36 films." Does this mean that a minimum of 62.5 ml of DD-X is required to develop one roll of film, regardless of the dilution used? (1000 ml divided by 16 rolls yields 62.5 ml)

Bob-D659
03-09-2012, 09:48 AM
See page 8 and 9 for extending tank times for dilution of 1+4, http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427124733149.pdf

Robert Ridyard
03-09-2012, 10:16 AM
Pages 8-9 concern re-using DD-X rather than using it as a one-shot developer. I want to use DD-X as a one-shot.

I used to believe that D-76 at 1:1 meant that you could develop two rolls of 35 mm film in a 16-oz tank using 8 oz of stock solution diluted in 8 oz of water. This is not the case, according to the fact sheet for D-76: "You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer."

A minimum of 8 oz of D-76 stock solution is required to develop a roll of film, whether you use D-76 straight or diluted 1:1.

Could this also be the case with DD-X, since the fact sheet clearly states that a litre will develop 16 rolls?

6x7
03-09-2012, 10:19 AM
The minimum amount of developer depends on your tank and the number of rolls being developed. In my Paterson Universal, it is roughly 60mL of developer (tank capacity is 290mL per roll of 35mm, but I round up to 300mL for easier measuring) to 240mL of water (1:4) for a single roll of 35mm.

Doing it this way, I can indeed develop 16 rolls of 35mm from a 1L bottle of DD-X.

Sal Santamaura
03-09-2012, 10:41 AM
The fact sheet for DD-X gives the following information: "Used at 1+4 for one shot processing DD-X will develop 16 135/36 films." Does this mean that a minimum of 62.5 ml of DD-X is required to develop one roll of film, regardless of the dilution used? (1000 ml divided by 16 rolls yields 62.5 ml)Yes, for one-shot use, that's the correct minimum quantity of concentrate per 80 square inches of film.

There are many who will report that they use less and doing so "works fine." If you too wish to gamble, follow their example. Only by using the minimum quantity of concentrate can you absolutely count on repeatable results regardless of what the scenes you photograph exhibit in terms of average brightness. Using less developer means that, depending on scene makeup, you might under develop or you might not.

Some other developers' minimums (concentrate or, for powder developers, stock solution) are:

Xtol - 100 ml

D-76 / ID-11 / Perceptol: 250 ml

Rodinal - 10 ml

HC-110 / Ilfotec HC - 6 ml

Shoot craps or be confident; the choice is yours. :)

Bob-D659
03-09-2012, 10:42 AM
Even if there is enough "developer" in 30 ml of stock solution, diluting it to weaker than 1+4 reduces the activity of the solution. So you have to use enough stock to make a 1+4 mix to cover the reel in the tank. The pages I mentioned indicate there is an excess of developer as extending the times for multiple rolls indicates. The one shot use is for optimum image quality and consistency as the document indicates. BTW, active developing agent consumption during processing depends on the amount of exposed silver in the roll. A roll of film exposed to room light will likely exhaust a tank full, an unexposed roll not so much.

Aron
03-09-2012, 11:12 AM
A die-hard Rodinal user would never say 10 ml. ;) I've got a 500 ml bottle in front of me (AgfaPhoto Rodinal) and on the box it says:

"Working capacity: For 30 to 80 rolls of 35 mm films with 36 exposures depending on dilution."

500/80=6,25 ml. Usually they state 7 ml is the official, but 5 ml works just fine.

Robert Ridyard
03-09-2012, 01:08 PM
I used to use 5 ml of Rodinal at 1:50 to process one roll of Tri-X and it worked fine.

Sal Santamaura
03-09-2012, 02:50 PM
...There are many who will report that they use less and doing so "works fine." If you too wish to gamble, follow their example....Shoot craps or be confident; the choice is yours. :)

I used to use 5 ml of Rodinal at 1:50 to process one roll of Tri-X and it worked fine.OK, follow "their" (your own) advice, shoot craps and be happy. :laugh:

pentaxuser
03-09-2012, 03:10 PM
There are users who claim good consistent results at 1+9. It requires longer times of course and Harman doesn't list 1+9 times. Do a search here and you'll find info. Try the Massive Development Chart. It lists 1+9 times if I recall but of course they are simply user times and not "official manufacturer times

pentaxuser

Sal Santamaura
03-09-2012, 04:51 PM
A die-hard Rodinal user would never say 10 ml...See the middle of the left column on page 6 of this document:

http://mauglee.kitox.com/files/agfa_bw_film_chemicals_en.pdf

It says (about Rodinal) "One-shot developer: with 500 ml concentrate about fifty films (135-36 or 120 roll-film) can be developed."

500 ml divided by 50 (80 square inch) rolls equals 10 ml. Confidence or crap shoot. :laugh:

Ken N
03-10-2012, 02:33 PM
I will use 1:9 with HP5+ but not for any other film. My experience with DD-X, and it is probably true with other similar developers is that the film grain gets a little more sandy in texture.

Another reason why I use DD-X at 1:4 is because I value my time.

Robert Ridyard
03-10-2012, 04:29 PM
I will use 1:9 with HP5+ but not for any other film. My experience with DD-X, and it is probably true with other similar developers is that the film grain gets a little more sandy in texture.

Another reason why I use DD-X at 1:4 is because I value my time.

Could the grain be sandy at a dilution of 1:9 because there is not the minimum amount of stock solution in the working solution, i.e. at least 61.5 ml of undiluted DD-X? Shouldn't the grain be sharper at a higher dilution?

6x7
03-11-2012, 08:55 AM
Wait, you're saying I need to get myself a 2.5mL dropper because 60mL will ruin my film? I've had nothing but consistent results using the method I described above. Is there something I should be seeing on the film which would be caused by the absence of such a minute amount of developer?

Robert Ridyard
03-11-2012, 12:16 PM
Wait, you're saying I need to get myself a 2.5mL dropper because 60mL will ruin my film? I've had nothing but consistent results using the method I described above. Is there something I should be seeing on the film which would be caused by the absence of such a minute amount of developer?

I guess my post wasn't clear. The info chart for DD-X states that a one-litre bottle will process 16 films at 1:4. A dilution of 1:4 means you get 5 litres of working solution from the one-litre bottle of DD-X. If you divide 5000 ml of working solution by 16 rolls of film, it means that you must have 62 ml of DD-X and 248 ml of water at the 1:4 dilution to process each roll of film. If you want to use a 1:9 dilution, you would have to use 62 ml of DD-X and 558 ml of water to process one roll. My query is this: what happens if there is not the minimum amount (62 ml) of undiluted DD-X in the working solution? (For example, if you use DD-X diluted 1:9 like this: 30 ml of DD-X in 270 ml of water.) Could this explain the "sandy" look of grain when DD-X is used at 1:9?

6x7
03-11-2012, 02:57 PM
No, your post was clear. I am the one who is confused.

If Paterson recommends 58mL of developer per roll of 35mm for 1:4, but Ilford suggests 62.5mL, does such a tiny difference in the amount of developer used result in a discernible difference in the quality of the finished product? Using the amounts I listed in my original post, I am technically above the 58mL recommended by the tank manufacturer but below the 62.5mL recommended by Ilford, yet my results for both 35mm and 120 using a variety of films has been consistent.

So what numbers do you follow? Should you follow? Tank manufacturer or developer manufacturer?

pentaxuser
03-11-2012, 03:32 PM
|Like 6x7 I cannot believe that such a small difference in stock DDX represents a discernible difference in neg quality and can further say that when I used DDX at 1+4 I was using a 250ml Jobo tank for 35mm film so only used 50mls of stock DDX without any disaster and always got 20 films from 1L stock DDX.

Does Ilford actually give a minimum quantity of 62.5 mls to be used which must not under any circumstances be less than 62.5?

As 6x7 has said if 62.5mls is the minimum then I and anyone else shouldn't be using Jobo tanks as they only hold 250( 240mls actually to be accurate) and I then need to either increase the size of my tank to the Paterson 300mls or risk using the DDX at a ratio of less than 1+4.

Maybe Ilford are in league with the likes of Paterson to ensure that users will abandon their Jobo and Durst tanks :D

OK I have become silly about it in suggesting the above conspiracy theory but it illustrates my point.

pentaxuser

MattKing
03-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Any recommendation from a tank manufacturer is developer independent - it says nothing about the chemical capacity of whatever "soup" you are using, but rather deals only with whether or not the volume of your working solution is enough to cover the film and within the range that will permit the right sort of agitation and not flow over and out of the tank.

The developer manufacturers' recommendations deal only with the chemical capacity of the "soup" you are using, and are tank and reel independent. If you choose a dilution and prepare a working solution based on the minimum quantity of developer concentrate or stock sufficient to ensure appropriate chemical capacity, then the volume of working solution that results may be either:
a) too little to cover the films and ensure appropriate agitation,
b) appropriate for your tank, or
c) too much to fit into the tanks and ensure appropriate agitation.

When the numbers are really close, I would tend to increase the strength of the dilution slightly to make it work, but there is probably enough safety room built into (in this case Ilford's) the recommendations to protect you.

Leigh B
03-11-2012, 04:26 PM
So what numbers do you follow? Should you follow? Tank manufacturer or developer manufacturer?
Use the recommendations from the developer manufacturer. He knows what's in the bottle.

Ignore information from any other source, like tank manufacturers, since the minimum varies with the developer being used.

- Leigh

presspass
12-16-2012, 11:47 AM
Sadly, that means wasted developer if you use Jobo tanks. I've just bought my first bottle of DD-X and have been pondering the same question. I can either develop one roll in a two-roll tank or three rolls in a four-roll tank (35 mm). I believe in filling the tank for inversion agitation, otherwise the sloshing introduces a new variable. So my choice is like that of the person who posed the question - use less DD-X than Ilford recommends, or use the recommended amount and not get the aforesaid 16 rolls per liter.