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adam hirsch
03-27-2012, 03:39 PM
Let's keep it to Kodak, folks. Take the political discussion to the soapbox, please. No, Kodak doesn't exist in a vacuum, but the rest of it is off topic for APUG.



Sorry, I just posted, before I saw your comment. I'm done. No more politics. I promise.


Adam

CGW
03-27-2012, 03:42 PM
I apologized for getting "way off topic;" however, since everyone else here, seems to want to do the same..............let's take all the "labels" out of the argument (liberal, conservative, socialist, communist, etc...) Let me throw out only one issue....without labels.......I believe that every citizen who's in the U.S. (legally, of course,) should pay the SAME Federal income tax rate. Whether you earn $10,000 per year or $10,000,000 per year, it should not matter...you pay the same RATE...the same PERCENTAGE. That seems FAIR, doesn't it??????? That's the type of government I want. That's the type of U.S.A. I want to live in. Does that make me a hate-mongering, right-wing, extremist??? Does that desire make me SO different from all of you who live outside the U.S.? Am I to be despised, bc I think it's fair we all pay the same tax rate, regardless of income? The left preaches "fairness." Well, I agree :) That's about as fair as they get. Maybe 15%? Maybe 20%? but, EVERY person pays the EXACT same rate. The reason? If I make $200,000/year, and I pay (for arguments sake) a 33% Federal tax rate, why on gd's Earth should the gov use my hard-earned tax dollars to "compensate" for someone who only pays, let's say a 20% rate on lesser income? OR, why should the govt TAKE from me 33%, yet 49% of the U.S. population pay 0%????????????????????? I know what many, here, will say in response: "Someone who makes only $10,000/year "can't afford to pay taxes at the same rate as someone earning $10,000,000. Their standard of living is so poor! Someone making 10,000,000/yr can pay 35% and NOT even miss it! They have so much money, they SHOULD pay more. Those greedy rich people SHOULD pay a higher rate (on "moral" grounds.) etc, etc........."
I have a hunch that 99% of everyone living outside the U.S. and 60% of those living inside the U.S. will disagree with me on this, for me, foundational issue. Because it's not "fair." Not fair to the poor, the downtrodden, the "victims of society." I'm Jewish, and if society ever approched me to offer me "reparations" bc my ancestors were killed in the Holocaust, I would be highly offended and would reject it outright. Not that this would ever happen, but, I would NEVER accept "compensation" of any kind-monetary or otherwise, bc I'm Jewish and my relatives were killed by the Nazis. I don't deserve it-I wasn't killed. My point being, I'm proud to work hard, support my family, raise my kids the best I can on the income I make (and, yes, I only made $40,000 last year with two kids.) I don't want hand-outs from the government, whether it be welfare, or free medical care, or subsidies. I want to earn it myself. I get greater pride from NOT taking hand-outs and I teach my children the same. I EXPECT to pay the same Fed tax rate as someone making 500,000/yr, and I would love it if this were true. I support my family Ok, and if I need to I'll work a second or third job, before I have money given to me from the govt, which was taken from someone making more than I do (on the basis that they "can afford to contribute more.")

Whether you agree with me on this issue, I believe a lot of the other "liberal-conservative" yardstick issues derive from my above issue: do we "take" from those who "have/can" and give (through govt programs) to those who "have not/can't)"? If you believe, based on your set of morals, values that a society SHOULD, then maybe you allign yourself more with stereotypical liberal, leftist, socialst ways of seeing things...conversely, if you believe a society should NOT, then, maybe you align yourself with what some, here, see as "arch conservative"
I'm going to stop with the off-topic stuff, now. Sorry to disturb the thread topic. Just that so many others continued on, after I stopped, I felt compelled. I'm done :)

On topic I wish I could afford 11X14 Tech Pan with some Azo paper.:):):)

Any chance the mods can delete this frothing and any other non-Kodak discussions, please. This takes the cake.

adam hirsch
03-27-2012, 03:42 PM
I have an American friend living in the UK at the present time. He has become a citizen. He does not think much of the medical system there, either from the treatment POV or the waiting list for other than simple problems. I have had similar comments from Canadian friends.

Basically, the best health care in the entire world is available in the US. Nowhere else. This is why many rulers from the mid and far east come to the US when they have medical problems. In fact, there were some who claim that Socialism kills the quality of many "benefits" or "entitlements" such as Medical and Dental care.

IDK. I just know that the care here is pretty good and very accessible to most everyone. (Even if you can't pay you can get emergency care)

Yeah, go ahead and beat on me, but ask yourself whether the King of Saudi Arabia would go to the UK or to the US for treatment?

http://crushliberalism.com/2007/07/30/canucks-come-to-america-for-health-care/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/21/us-saudi-king-idUSTRE6AK0X620101121

etc! ;)

PE

Thank you.

Adam

Ken Nadvornick
03-27-2012, 03:45 PM
Just for the record, I have never, ever once clicked on the little black triangle in any APUG thread.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever clicked on Ignore for any other member or subscriber, no matter how strongly I may have disagreed with their posts.

Ken

adam hirsch
03-27-2012, 03:48 PM
I've apologized for the off-topic posts, and, I've stopped.

Adam

georg16nik
03-27-2012, 03:59 PM
OK, sticks back on the ice.

Did anyone see anywhere any reference or press release concerning the OP's second-hand citation of this Kodak employee's speech on the future of film?
CGW, no such luck.. and my friend Dave is still waiting to hear from Ms. Beverly Pasterczyk.

MaximusM3
03-27-2012, 04:29 PM
Out of curiosity, since I don't feel like shuffling through 25 pages, did the OP ever come back to this thread or did he just drop the bomb and he's watching the show?

Photo Engineer
03-27-2012, 04:37 PM
Kodak announced that it will freeze all pay for one year. There will be no pay raises.

As for Azo paper Adam, Mark Osterman and I are teaching a workshop in Rochester at GEH starting April 2nd. on how to make your own Azo type paper in 3 grades. There is still space available.

PE

adam hirsch
03-27-2012, 04:53 PM
Kodak announced that it will freeze all pay for one year. There will be no pay raises.

As for Azo paper Adam, Mark Osterman and I are teaching a workshop in Rochester at GEH starting April 2nd. on how to make your own Azo type paper in 3 grades. There is still space available.

PE

Thank you for the information. If it weren't my daughter's birthday, I would attend. The only experience i have with this type of paper is I used some Lodima paper, but, I would love to learn to make my own Azo paper. Will you be offering this, again, during the year?

Adam

georg16nik
03-27-2012, 04:55 PM
Out of curiosity, since I don't feel like shuffling through 25 pages, did the OP ever come back to this thread or did he just drop the bomb and he's watching the show?

Max, he's probably just watching the show.

So far, it looks like a heavily cross posted thing..

[Frameworks] Fwd: Kodachrome ressurection???

David Tetzlaff
Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:43:51 -0700

From the Auricon Sound Yahoo Group:

> Kodak says Kodachrome may come back
> Posted by: "Jack Honeycutt"
> Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:27 pm (PDT)
>
>
> Cross post from 3D users group (from today):
>
>> I just attended (last night) a SMPTE meeting of the Hollywood Chapter.
>> The subject was "The Technology and History of Film, presented by Beverly
>> Pasterczyk of Eastman Kodak Co." Ms. Pasterczyk is a....
http://www.mail-archive.com/frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com/msg02177.html

Tim Gray
03-27-2012, 05:37 PM
It's also on cinematography.com.

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=55564

Photo Engineer
03-27-2012, 06:13 PM
Thank you for the information. If it weren't my daughter's birthday, I would attend. The only experience i have with this type of paper is I used some Lodima paper, but, I would love to learn to make my own Azo paper. Will you be offering this, again, during the year?

Adam

That is up to GEH. IDK.

We may move on to other topics.

And no one should hold their breath for Kodachrome to come back. There are huge technical obstacles to overcome before it can return. It would probably take years go get a full Kodachrome line up and running again.

PE

alanrockwood
03-27-2012, 06:19 PM
That is up to GEH. IDK.

We may move on to other topics.

And no one should hold their breath for Kodachrome to come back. There are huge technical obstacles to overcome before it can return. It would probably take years go get a full Kodachrome line up and running again.

PE

I realize that the following is highly unlikely to ever happen, but from a purely technical point of view would it be feasible to update Kodachrome to use T-grain emulsion?

I wonder if part of the reason Kodachrome lost out is that it did not undergo technology updates to keep it ahead of competing technologies.

Sirius Glass
03-27-2012, 06:56 PM
I suspect some Kodak employees will change their mind about Obamacare and the more general idea of an universal health coverage European style, even though, from what I could understand, Obamacare is really not a NHS solution, but a different attempt to reach a broad coverage within the current framework of the US health system based on private insurance schemes.

What many US people don't realise is that the US system is quite an anomaly in the Western world. In most Western countries there is no communism (not even traces of it) but there is a NHS, and the idea of universal coverage is quite obvious. That is financed largely by taxes. This doesn't mean that the rest of the Western world is right and that the US are wrong, but it certainly means that a NHS doesn't make of a country a Communist one.

The debate over a broader coverage of health care and the way to finance seems to have fallen prey of an ideological hysteria, some kind of a "domino effect theory": you let them do a NHS system, and before you realize it you find yourself waving a red booklet... that kind of stuff.

Said hopefully without polemic ;)

Fabrizio

PS When Ferrania closed doors, all its employees, past and present, just like any other person resident in Italy, had complete health care coverage for life. The idea of saving to buy health care is totally extraneous to most Westerners.


Stop being so logical and accurate about the facts!
"Constitutional" Conservatives make claims all the time about what the founding fathers meant and represented, but what the CCs are stating is wholly make up and has nothing in common with what was written at the time of the revolution and writing of the Constitution except that for the most part the same alphabet was used. But never challenge a CC, because they will just spew more ad-hoc made up "facts.

Old-N-Feeble
03-27-2012, 07:44 PM
What I've learned in my life is to let things go... accept inevitable changes. I haven't believed in "destiny" for a long time now and I've learned to give-in to "whatever it is" that is to come. We have so little control of our surroundings that our "needs and wants" just don't matter. We should just let go... and breathe a little bit. In the long run what is "really" worth fighting for anyway? Not much, really. Why? Because we've stopped caring for one another. Without that... what else matters?

Film? Really?

ETA: Let's all hope for the best for ALL involved in the EK problems.

Photo Engineer
03-27-2012, 10:06 PM
I realize that the following is highly unlikely to ever happen, but from a purely technical point of view would it be feasible to update Kodachrome to use T-grain emulsion?

I wonder if part of the reason Kodachrome lost out is that it did not undergo technology updates to keep it ahead of competing technologies.

A T-Grain 400 speed version of Kodachrome was made in the 80s and was rejected by the people to whom samples were sent. It was (to them) a ho hum product. I repeat though that this is all very unlikely to take place whatever! Ever! This requires restarting so many lines of chemical synthesis and emulsion making that it is really out of the question.

I have had my say on this. Please, no more questions on this!!!!!! PLEASE.

PE

Steve Roberts
03-28-2012, 09:48 AM
Forget Kodachrome - it's history. It died with the loss of K25 and decent processing at Hemel Hempstead (if you're in the UK!).
I'd welcome just a return of the EliteChrome/Ektachrome call them what you will reversal films, partly because I liked them and partly because a bit of competition for Fuji would be healthy.
Steve

wblynch
03-28-2012, 09:55 AM
Special runs of Ektachrome and Plus-X in 120, please.

Steve Smith
03-28-2012, 10:01 AM
Forget Kodachrome - it's history. It died with the loss of K25 and decent processing at Hemel Hempstead (if you're in the UK!).

I remember sending it there. And Deer Park, Wimbledon springs to mind.


Steve.

kb3lms
03-28-2012, 11:28 AM
Let's assume, for the moment, that the article cited in the OP is fact. Don't know that it is or not, but let's pretend that it is. I have a theory about what Kodak is up to and I'd like to hear what some of the rest of you might think. Let me lay out my thoughts, and this is specific to color films:

First, some observations on my part:

1) Kodak has put their recent R&D work (such as it is) into color negative products. Ektar, Portra, Vision 3 and maybe even consumer C-41 films derived from the above.
2) Films outside the CN arena have been reliably discontinued, probably as the master rolls have run out. Examples: Kodachrome, Ektachrome and so on.
3) Color negative use IS declining but will probably settle out at some relatively stable level. Maybe we haven't hit bottom yet or maybe we have. IDK. But I am assuming there is or will be a residual market worth serving.
4) We've all noticed over the last few years that the newest offerings (Portra, Vision 3, Ektar) have definite similarities. Kodak seems to present Vision3 as the root from which the others are derived.
5) It also seems that the latest offerings are very versatile. (Well, maybe not Ektar) Good results over a wide range of situations, push to higher speeds with good results, etc.
6) In the OP the speaker is cited as saying that new technology will allow Kodak to make any sort of film (I am assuming current offerings here) at no particular minimum quantity, as long as the roll is 54 inches wide, i.e. coated on the same line on the same machine.

So, then, this is what I think they are doing:

Kodak has, or is working on, a standardized color negative emulsion that they can use to make ANY AND ALL of the current products. There are slow speed, medium speed and fast speed silver components which can be selectively blended to yield an ISO of whatever you want: 100, 250, 400, 800 and so on. To make any particular film stock, you then tweak the particular dyes and sensitizers that are added to the emulsion. All this mixing is done under computer control just ahead of the coating line AT PRODUCTION TIME. A master roll is then coated with whatever product mix they desire in a specified sequence and then cut up accordingly.

So let's say, for example, we would need (in 35mm) 5000 rolls of Ektar, 10000 of Portra 160, 7500 of Portra 400 and 50,000 feet of 5207 in 35mm for a given week's production. (Realize I am just making up numbers for an example as I don't know the specifics involved.) A coating run might go like this, then, assuming a continuous supply of film base at the beginning of the line: 4000 feet are coated with 5207, then under computer control, the mix is changed and the next 950 fee are coated for Portra 160. Then the mix changes again and the next 700 feet are coated for Portra 400. Finally the mix is changed for Ektar and the final 500 feet of the run are coated with that.

The coating line doesn't stop. As the film comes off the line it is cut between the various products and made into smaller master rolls of each. These smaller masters then are slit and packaged in the traditional manner. Or maybe the the coated film is fed continuously through the slitting and packaging operation with that part of the process automatically changed on demand as well.

This production methodology could be scaled for production on a weekly basis, or maybe, daily or maybe even hourly. The idea being that they keep the line running by producing only the product mix needed over a relatively short period of time. What's being coated by the machine is a mix of very closely related variations based on the same basic components. It allows enourmous flexibility. If we don't need any Ektar this week, we don't coat any, but we have already shipped the stock we made and don't have master rolls (INVENTORY and therefore $$$$) languishing on the shelf aging and potentially going to waste. You make it and ship it in one operation exactly at the time it is needed. Nothing sits around in the warehouse consuming space and inventory dollars going bad.

If you needed a special film, as long as it is made from the same basic components, you run it through the same process by creating a special program for the computer control and coat exactly the amount you need. No leftover and no waste. Or at least minimal waste. You can coat 100 feet of it once a year and the impact is just about nil because we have moved from a batch process to a customizable, continuous process using standaized components.

Obviously this is a simplistic example but I think it fits the "facts" - in the sense of "facts" that are floating around here. If I were given their constraints these days, that's how I'd do it. And based on the direction the manufacturing consultants my employer has hired over the last few years have steered our workplace, if Kodak had anyone similar helping their reorganization, and I am sure they do, I'd be willing to bet this is the direction they are being driven.

Can B/W films fit directly into the process on the same line? IDK but B/W can likely be produced in the same manner.