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Sean
02-24-2005, 07:44 PM
I suppose the way it is approached is the main thing. Maybe a zone of analog only, and then anything else exists elsewhere and is available by brochure information and word of mouth..? We have plenty of time to mold this into an event we can all enjoy..

Peter Schrager
02-24-2005, 08:33 PM
Did someone say that we are flying Sean in first class? Or is that a misprint. Sincerely hope as many people as possible make it to Toronto '06!!
Regards, Peter

papagene
02-24-2005, 10:32 PM
In regards to the inclusion of any digital processes used - I think the APUG Conference should be a digital free zone.
Just my $0.02 worth of opinion.

gene

Gay Larson
02-24-2005, 10:34 PM
I think this is the one place that should remain digital free, after all wasn't that what we were all about in the first place? There are numerous sites for digital.

Jeremy
02-24-2005, 10:52 PM
I suppose the way it is approached is the main thing. Maybe a zone of analog only, and then anything else exists elsewhere and is available by brochure information and word of mouth..? We have plenty of time to mold this into an event we can all enjoy..


I think the idea is that those who take part in the hybrid processes and apug can have a session for themselves where they can get together and talk shop. There is no envisionment in my mind at all of asking digital vendors to come, but instead getting together with the small group here at Apug who do participate in the grey area. Even if this has to be removed from affiliation with the Apugginess of the conference, I for one would like to get together with Sandy King, Clay Harmon, Mark Nelson, Don BGA (sorry, Don, can't for the life of me remember your last name), and everyone else to discuss the current state of the hybrid processes. If you want, Jorge, we can hang a sign on our little closet that says "Ignored" :)

waynecrider
02-24-2005, 11:32 PM
Would anyone mind if I bought a broadcast digital video camera to record the event. It does use tape.

jd callow
02-24-2005, 11:49 PM
The conference as it is developing is clearly and narrowly focused on analog. Anyone who has read any of my posts knows where I stand. Under no circumstances would any of us wish to have an epson booth or a digital SLR demo or any pure digital demo, talk, workshop etc..

I see this convention as a pluralistic event. Meaning there should be something for everyone --vertically meaning beginner to skilled and horizontally from glass plates to crossprocessed chromes -- and that as organizers we are going to do our best to deliver for everyone.

Everyone needs to realize that we have had a good amount of inquires from mainstream APUGers about digital neg contact printing. We are not creating the demand we are reacting to it.

Like every modern lab worth its salt, Bob's lab has digital capabilities. Some aspects of the analog processes being discussed on this forum have a digital step. Specifically the only things we would consider would be analog capture to digital neg to analog print or some other 2/3 analog process and then only if there were interest from APUGers and as I said before if it has Sean's blessing.

If having an overwhelming focus on pure analog, and a single demonstration or workshop on digital negís (as an example) is unacceptable for Sean that is fine. We won't have the workshop or demo.

Meanwhile, for us to be successful we need your input, and support, but please donít have the debate here in this thread about what you donít want. Drop us an email and tell us what you do want. At the end of the Day as organizers we will present to Sean what we can deliver and he will be the final arbiter.

Aggie
02-25-2005, 12:27 AM
Like every modern lab worth its salt, Bob's lab has digital capabilities. Some aspects of the analog processes being discussed on this forum have a digital step. Specifically the only things we would consider would be analog capture to digital neg to analog print or some other 2/3 analog process and then only if there were interest from APUGers and as I said before if it has Sean's blessing.


What beyond film, to a just enlarged via digital, to analog print, would be considerd? The grey area was only set up so that enlarged negs via a computer could be made. Now it has become the way that apug is to become only 2/3 film based? That grey area was never intended to be the back door into apug with digital anything other than an enlarged negative.




Meanwhile, for us to be successful we need your input, and support, but please donít have the debate here in this thread about what you donít want. Drop us an email and tell us what you do want. At the end of the Day as organizers we will present to Sean what we can deliver and he will be the final arbiter.


Since this is a conference to be called apug, and it deals with all of us, I think it should be openly discussed. Why hide it, should we not have freedom of speech in all things?

Sean
02-25-2005, 12:47 AM
I surely can not fault the organizers for reacting to inquiries, etc. What they are doing is a huge task and right now is still in the brainstorming phase. Get it all out there and then let the sorting out begin. But the following statement I've heard before on APUG comes to mind: "APUG does not need to be all things to all people".

Do we have 2 main types of APUG members? 1) Those totally devoted to traditional, you know the elitist luddites -me included. 2) Those using traditional only until digital gets good enough, then we'll never see them again.
I do get the feeling that some are here for the medium, and some are here simply waiting until digital 'get's there' for them.
If so I would prefer the conference to be for the 1 types who are very committed to this medium and website in every way. Just my 2c..

Jeremy
02-25-2005, 01:14 AM
Do we have 2 main types of APUG members? 1) Those totally devoted to traditional, you know the elitist luddites -me included. 2) Those using traditional only until digital gets good enough, then we'll never see them again.
I do get the feeling that some are here for the medium, and some are here simply waiting until digital 'get's there' for them.
If so I would prefer the conference to be for the 1 types who are very committed to this medium and website in every way. Just my 2c..

I'm a type 3: Uses analog inputs (35mm-5x7 film) and analog outputs (palladium and starting next week: gum bichromate) with a digital step in between. Not any different in my mind than color shooters who have their negs/slides printed with a fuji frontier. The only difference is that I am taking control of the scanning and tweaks before the final output. This actually gives me more control than [most] color photogs have as I develop my own b&w negs and I control the final printing process with different developer mixes/number of coatings/number of printings/solution mixture/etc.

My 5x7 negs are straight to pd prints, but I don't have the space/room for an enlarger right now so I scan my 35mm and 120 negs to make digital negatives. And I don't have any desire in learning to make analog tri-color separation negatives so I will do this digitally when my tri-color gum supplies come next week. Finally, even with Jim Chinn's wonderful deals on ULF camera I still can't afford one (not to mention film and other needed supplies for such a jump) so scanning and making digital negs over 5x7 and up to 13x19 is my only option at the moment for pd and gum.

Having shot a lot of digital in the past including the 16-22meg medium format backs, I have to say for me digital is there now in quality, but I still prefer to use film.

edit: If you can show me an analog way to enlarge my negatives which does not require a darkroom or enlarger then please let me know and I will look into it, but until then or when I win the lottery I will have to rely on digital. If I won the lottery today I would buy a house near my university, add a full-tilt darkroom and never use a computer for photography again (well, except to talk on apug).

Dave Parker
02-25-2005, 01:48 AM
I am not taking one side or another, but will state, this, in my mind is not if digital has arrived, or if film is past its hey day, the whole idea of the apug conference is based on the definition of this group of people, which clearly states, 'Analog Photography Users Group' Almost everyone one of us here acknowledges that yes, there is digital and yes, many users are limited by factors that do not allow them to participate in 100% analog photography, having more control due to scans is not the point, alternative digital negative process is not the point, the point and the only point is really the whole reason for apug.

I am a person, who bases a great amount of what I do everyday on analog photography, and by the overwhelming responce to our product, know there are an awful lot of others who devote a great deal of time to analog photography as well.

I am very interested in particpating or attending a purely analog conference, if I were interested in a cross over conference with digital as part of it, I would attend another conference, which I could do by going to the View Camera Conference, which I will not be attending, because I don't want to hear about alternative processes, or digital maniuplation in the context of analog photography, that is not to say, I am of the belief it is right or wrong, just not something that belongs within the spirit of what the idea for which the conference was orginally thought up for. the idea for an apug conference, from everything I have read, the conference was to be set up for the analog photography participants.

Sean, was gracious enough to set up a alt process grey area, which in the theme of this website, was really going a long ways for him , I don't feel that because he did this, that the spirit of a get together should be changed as well.

Just my .02 opinon, but have to say, if there is a cross over section at this conference that focuses on digital, I and my company will most likely not be attending.

David Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

photomc
02-25-2005, 04:06 AM
The organizers of the event have requested that everyone let them know what DO Want from the conference via email or PM..so let's not beat this old horse again.

They have stated openly that the final say so will rest with Sean on what is part of the event...good enough for me.

If those in attendance, that are interested were to meet and discuss whatever it is they want to discuss..I don't think the film police will be out in force to haul anyone away...hint, hint,wink, wink...

More important than this one debate, in my mind, is WHAT Else will be going on. What OTHER talks, shoots, etc do people want. Sounds to me like the guys working on this have already put forth a lot of effort and deserve to have the members input (I plead guilty, have not sent them anything yet either) so that the conference will be as much as possible all things APUG. So rather than beat the dead horse (it must be made into a drum now as much as it gets beat)...let's all pitch in and let these guys know WHAT IT IS we do want.

Off topic from the dead horse...how many days is the event planned for.

Rant over....hey it's 3a.m. my time and I have the flu, so if this makes no sense blame it on the drugs...

rogueish
02-25-2005, 06:59 AM
The APUG conference will be taking place at the same time as CONTACT. This is a (almost) city wide event focusing on Photography, likely in all it's forms. If the APUG conf. doesn't have any digital content, it's likely those interested will be able to find something elsewhere in the city.

Now I am interested in view cameras. I definitly can not afford to buy one, but it would be nice to check them out. Yes I will avoid drooling on the bellows. Will be taking at least one workshop: printing or toning, likely both. Am also interested in learning how to get the most out of my light meter.

I will also be volunteering time to help with what ever I can help with. Guiding, running for supplies, handing out name tags, following Sean to make sure he is never without liquid substance OR film, or what ever meanial and lowly (push that mop!) job Mr Carnie and associates deems me capable of.

Looking forward to seeing you all there!

Jorge
02-25-2005, 07:08 AM
A while back Bob contacted me and asked me if I would help him desing a workflow for producing enlarged negatives if he acquired a Lambda printer. I imagine he chose me because although I have an understanding of sensitometry I have no idea about digital. The goal being that a person such as me, who has no desire to learn digital can call him, send him a small/MF negative or a digital file and ask him to make an enlarged negative for printing in whatever process he/she likes (silver/pt/Azo etc).

Contrary to what many beleive here, I am not anti digital and I understand it has a place as an aid to traditional photography. OTOH I hate to tell you all this, but I "told you so". BAck when the "gray area" was created I was adamantly opposed to it, and I said it was a back door to worm digital into APUG. This has become a divisive topic mainly at the insistance of one person who could not abide by the wishes of the creator of this site and could not have the courtesy to leave it alone. Now, once again we are discussing this, and I think it is time we put a stop to it once and for all.

I understand some of you do not have a darkroom or access to one, but this is no excuse to once again introduce digital into a community which wants to keep the focus of the conference limited to traditonal. BTW, I never had a darkroom until I moved to Mexico, I always used a closet, extra room, bathroom etc. SO with some ingenuity it can be done and it is no reason to try and sneak in digital into APUG once again. Lets face it, ink jet negatives are nothing more than a convenience, it is far easier to make them than to set up a darkroom.

IMO the inclusion of digital negatives in the conference is not a good idea, it will be a cause of tension and will in fact divide what should be a conference in celebration of traditional process into two camps, and this I think will in fact ruin the conference for all. I am at a loss as to why those who want digital negatives did not contact Simmons and asked him to include this topic in his conference and attend that conference. Once again, why does it have to be in APUG's conference? It is no longer a matter of digital vs film, IMO it has become a matter of courtesy towards the membership and the charter of this organization.

Jeremy said he would love to see King, Clay, etc...me too (well, at least Clay), but I would rather see them talk about making carbon prints, wet plates, etc. Than talking about ink jet prints on a piece of plastic. They have other areas of expertise outside the creation of digital negatives which are very interesting and at the same time will fit with the original idea of creating this site.

As Mike said, I dont think there is going to be a film police and I am sure those of you who have an interest in ink jet negatives will eventually get together and discuss them, but let that be a personal choice, not one forced upon us by the minority in this site.

Bob Carnie
02-25-2005, 10:28 AM
Hi Folks

As John says we will definately follow Seans advice before announcing speakers and workshops.
Please remember one thing, The facility is a hard core photographic lab, and this is where the workshops will take place, there are no conference floors or booth areas . Sponsors will be asked to back a paticular speaker with financial compensation. We will ask sponsors as well to put forth a speaker if they have any concrete ideas.
I am totally cool in having this event 100% analog, as this is what I do every day of the week. print fibre.
Just one warning , we are beta testing large negatives for analog purposes as I print platinum for myself and others. By 2006 there will be large samples on the walls.
We are sending our staff home for the three days and weekend to host this event, I cannot ask my partner to take down sample prints. (maybe we can put sheets over them to hide the imagery)

Rest assured , if the overwhelming concenses is to be 100% analog , for sure we can definately accomodate this event.
John and I now need to know what you want so that we can get paid instructors booked by this summer.
So keep the pms coming with your thoughts and suggestions to content and good teachers. Remember any damm stupid question will be tolarated from newbie right up to seasoned vets.
Also need musicians for the backyard late night barbeques and some simple recipes for good eats. I will have Wellington Brew on tap.

Jeremy
02-25-2005, 01:55 PM
So keep the pms coming with your thoughts and suggestions to content and good teachers.

As requested, PM sent.

Aggie
02-25-2005, 03:45 PM
The organizers of the event have requested that everyone let them know what DO Want from the conference via email or PM..so let's not beat this old horse again.

They have stated openly that the final say so will rest with Sean on what is part of the event...good enough for me.

If those in attendance, that are interested were to meet and discuss whatever it is they want to discuss..I don't think the film police will be out in force to haul anyone away...hint, hint,wink, wink...

More important than this one debate, in my mind, is WHAT Else will be going on. What OTHER talks, shoots, etc do people want. Sounds to me like the guys working on this have already put forth a lot of effort and deserve to have the members input (I plead guilty, have not sent them anything yet either) so that the conference will be as much as possible all things APUG. So rather than beat the dead horse (it must be made into a drum now as much as it gets beat)...let's all pitch in and let these guys know WHAT IT IS we do want.

Off topic from the dead horse...how many days is the event planned for.

Rant over....hey it's 3a.m. my time and I have the flu, so if this makes no sense blame it on the drugs...


Mike you just helped me make a decision on this. Since input is wanted and ideas are wanted but it must be done in secret, and those deemed film police (me) are not supposde to be there, I will follow that wish and no on longer plan on attending this conf. I will also refuse to read anything futher about this, it can all be kept secret. Enjoy the 2/3 conf.

Dave Parker
02-25-2005, 05:08 PM
I surely can not fault the organizers for reacting to inquiries, etc. What they are doing is a huge task and right now is still in the brainstorming phase. Get it all out there and then let the sorting out begin. But the following statement I've heard before on APUG comes to mind: "APUG does not need to be all things to all people".

Do we have 2 main types of APUG members? 1) Those totally devoted to traditional, you know the elitist luddites -me included. 2) Those using traditional only until digital gets good enough, then we'll never see them again.
I do get the feeling that some are here for the medium, and some are here simply waiting until digital 'get's there' for them.
If so I would prefer the conference to be for the 1 types who are very committed to this medium and website in every way. Just my 2c..

I don't understand, why there is still discussion going on about this subject, Sean the man who started all of this and maintains it has made his opinion known as to what this conference should be, I would say that would be the last word as he is the founder and apug is his baby!

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

jd callow
02-25-2005, 05:48 PM
I don't understand, why there is still discussion going on about this subject, Sean the man who started all of this and maintains it has made his opinion known as to what this conference should be, I would say that would be the last word as he is the founder and apug is his baby!

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

Dave
You are absolutely correct, but there will be plenty to discuss shortly (I hope). As I said earlier, bear with us as we get things sorted.

jdc