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Brian C. Miller
09-01-2012, 06:54 PM
Ratty, I think that "world's supply in one day" refers to still film production. The other films are things like movie film, film for non-photographic industrial applications like circuit board production, and things like that.

Photo Engineer
09-01-2012, 07:26 PM
I did not say world's needs in one day. I said, if you read the entire post, the world's needs of one product! And, it depends on the demand for that product as I pointed out in either that post or a later one using illustrations. E6 and Kodachrome may only need one run / year, but others are made 2 or 3 times weekly and I would cite ECN, ECP, Portra and Ektar.

PE

kb3lms
09-01-2012, 07:29 PM
That's why I used the example of one master roll per day, 85,000 rolls of film per day, to give people on the forum a sense of what is produced. I don't know if National Geographic used 85,000 rolls in a year, but 15 minutes of coating time was enough for them, and very likely a healthy surplus. As you've stated, today's world-wide demand can be met in one day by Kodak.

Just to add to your point, I once read that 10% of all the still color negative film manufactured by Kodak worldwide consumed by visitors to Disney World in Florida. IIRC this was printed in the Kodakery, EK's internal newsletter for employees. It was shortly before I left EK so that would be about 1994. In 2004 this number was essentially zero. My family visited Disney that year and you could just about not find Kodak film anywhere in the park. And at the one or two places you could find it, the price was hideously expensive. (However, it was at Disney World so not a real surprise.)

So, think about this: In the mid 1990's Kodak was coating film for about an hour per day just to cover use in Disney World. IDK if it really worked that way, though.

kb3lms
09-01-2012, 07:33 PM
but others are made 2 or 3 times weekly and I would cite ECN, ECP, Portra and Ektar.

PE, WOW! If Portra and Ektar are coated at least weekly that is the BEST NEWS I've heard in some time!

Photo Engineer
09-01-2012, 07:35 PM
Look guys, that was an example of a high runner vs low runner, not fact.

Give it UP!

PE

kb3lms
09-01-2012, 07:47 PM
Sorry, PE, I see what you are saying. I wonder how often those films are coated, though? Then again, maybe I don't really want to know.

Curiosity question, from what I understand with the underlying technology of films like Portra and Ektar being closely related, is it possible for them to be coated on the same run? I had heard this was done with the Portra NC and VC.

Arctic amateur
09-01-2012, 07:48 PM
Most of you seem to be unaware of the new Kodak product introduced recently. They now make an archival color print film for storage of master copies of digital motion pictures. This is their effort to give the digital world a method of backing up images.
PE

Is this film intended for printing analog images, or a digital data pattern (like a QR code)?

Photo Engineer
09-01-2012, 09:03 PM
Is this film intended for printing analog images, or a digital data pattern (like a QR code)?

My understanding is that it can print virtually anything.

PE

Photo Engineer
09-01-2012, 09:05 PM
Sorry, PE, I see what you are saying. I wonder how often those films are coated, though? Then again, maybe I don't really want to know.

Curiosity question, from what I understand with the underlying technology of films like Portra and Ektar being closely related, is it possible for them to be coated on the same run? I had heard this was done with the Portra NC and VC.

Well, lets say that Portra requires 10% less thickness overal vs Ektar. That being so, the drying is reduced by 10% less. This change in temperature and humidity may take 1 - 2 hours as a theoretical example. So, close but no cigar.

PE

Ektagraphic
09-01-2012, 10:40 PM
I believe I had read here somewhere that Kodak plans for coating about one year ahead of time...I wonder what they have planned for a year from now. Will they still plan as if the sale doesn't go through?....I also saw something somewhere with a quote from Perez that there should be no interruption in product supply- That should be interesting.

Grain Farmer
09-02-2012, 12:16 AM
That's the old China you are talking about. Today China is far richer than $15 a day in income. The average price of a home in Shanghai is over $200,000 and there are hundreds of thousands of homes that cost over one million dollars. I'm renting a home (well my company is) that cost over $800,000. There is enormous wealth in Chinese cities now. Shanghai has over 24 million people and many many are extremely wealthy. You would have to go way out into the countryside to find someone living on $15/day.


Don't know what kind of expat bubble you're living in but if you want to meet someone who makes $15 a day walk into any store or any restaurant or pretty much any place in Shanghai you can find people making that much. Just looking at the 招聘 signs on any establishment anywhere that lists the salary right there on the wall and you'll be hard pressed to find a monthly salary higher than 3000, which isn't even $15 a day. Yes there are alot of rich people here too, but you have to remember that even when they have money, Chinese people are still cheap, and prefer to save.

And yes, I do think more and more people are getting into film over here, or want to get into film. The lomo store is one of the biggest. A few of my friends have picked up some old used Nikons off of Taobao and want to shoot film because they know the feel of film is completely different from that of digital. But the biggest problem I hear from these people is the price. Atleast I know Leka/Lucky won't be going out of business any time soon.

I'm an E6 shooter, so I would love for there to be more E6 shooters, and I believe having a cheap E6 option would make that possible.

chriscrawfordphoto
09-02-2012, 01:23 AM
Just looking at the 招聘 signs on any establishment anywhere that lists the salary right there on the wall and you'll be hard pressed to find a monthly salary higher than 3000, which isn't even $15 a day.

Businesses in China post signs that say how much they pay their employees?

RattyMouse
09-02-2012, 05:43 AM
Don't know what kind of expat bubble you're living in but.....

I dont live in a bubble, regardless of how condescending you try to be. I've lived in Shanghai for 3 years, and have worked here for nearly 10. And before that I was coming here for family (my wife of 15 years is Chinese). I've been coming to China more times than I can count since 1995, burning up an entire US expanded passport in less than 1 and a half years during one stint.

You know those Expat compounds where you feel as if you are in suburban America? You know, no Chinese people or Chinese language anywhere? I dont live there. I live in a 99.99% Chinese area. I know of one single other foreigner living in my compound. I have a very good feel for how the locals live here. There's 25 towers in my compound, most over 20 stories. What's in the parking garage? BMW's, Mercedes, Audi's, Porches, and even H2's. No Chinese cars at all. The prices in the local food market are very high. $8 for a box of cereal that's 1/3rd the size you'd find back in the US. Who shops here? Everyone in the neighborhood.

Come by Jinxiu Lu at night on a Friday or Saturday and watch the locals blast down the road in their Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. They do it all the time, winding those engines out like they are an F1 racer. One day someone is going to get killed and I'll have a 12th floor view of the mess.

Sure you can find service people who make barely nothing. That's not mainstream anymore. In 1995 and earlier it was, not now. Anyone with a college education and a real job in Shanghai is making good money. A chemist at my company, younger than me with half the career that I have carries around a $3000 French purse. Another chemist, more in line with my level of experience bought her THIRD house last year, before the government stopped such things.

China is an incredibly diverse country. Way so more than the US for sure. Some are poor. Some make money but save like my grand mother, and some splurge like crazy. There are a LOT of people who spend a LOT of money here.

Now, to bring this back on topic. I just bought my first ever roll of slide film. 25 years taking pictures, I never once shot a roll of slide. Now I want to try it. I bought 20 rolls of Acros today and 1 roll of Provia. We'll see how it goes.

EDIT: I just found an interest stat (from 2011) about Shanghai:

"The average price of Shanghai’s new homes shot to a seven-month high of more than 24,000 yuan (US$3,626) per square meters last week even as the government reiterated that it will still continue to tame prices despite unveiling policies that don’t seem to be working."

For those poor at math, that's $362,600 for a 100 sq meter home. The home I rent is 220 sq meters. Every unit in my building, and most buildings in my area are at least 150 sq meters.

http://cnbusinessnews.com/new-home-average-price-rises-in-shanghai/#axzz25JAoypqI

MaximusM3
09-02-2012, 08:33 AM
How is the movie industry reacting to this latest round of news?

Grain Farmer
09-02-2012, 09:24 AM
I dont live in a bubble, regardless of how condescending you try to be.

Sorry, didn't mean to be so condescending but when someone makes totally untrue statements like this:
You would have to go way out into the countryside to find someone living on $15/day.

I have to refute them.

Do you honestly think that the place where you live, where everyone is racing around in Ferraris and lining up to buy $8 boxes of cereal is truly representative of the majority of Shanghai? 23 million people all live like that? There's many wealthy people here, I will agree with you there. But they don't make up the majority of the people. Not by a long shot. And the rest of China is far poorer than Shanghai. Laobaixing make of the majority of the population, and I think that targeting them with cheaper film products could be a good strategy.

I'm glad you've started shooting slide film. I hope your first roll goes well for you. Maybe someday I will see you out shooting the streets of Shanghai. Are there any good labs over there in Pudong?

Grain Farmer
09-02-2012, 09:27 AM
Businesses in China post signs that say how much they pay their employees?

Yeah they're everywhere. There seems to be a labour shortage.

Photo Engineer
09-02-2012, 09:33 AM
I believe I had read here somewhere that Kodak plans for coating about one year ahead of time...I wonder what they have planned for a year from now. Will they still plan as if the sale doesn't go through?....I also saw something somewhere with a quote from Perez that there should be no interruption in product supply- That should be interesting.

Kodak film making plans far into the future. At one time, they scheduled up to 5 years in advance so that they could obtain the lowest prices on Silver and other chemicals.

PE

Todd Foster
09-02-2012, 01:09 PM
What about the Agfa machine now at Inoviscoat mentioned much earlier on this thread? Adox black and white papers are made on it, including the amazing MCC 110 VCFB material, presumably for a good profit. Quality IMO is equal to or better than earlier, now extinct premium B&W papers.
www.inoviscoat.de

I'm wondering if they couldn't make film on this machine if the opportunity was right. Is a different coating machine needed for paper vs film? If this machine (or other smaller machines at other companies) can coat both film and paper, mightn't this dual capacity be a saving economic grace? (Many film users like myself will want to make prints into their old age, even if they aren't using much film anymore.) Maybe this is already about to happen? Maybe they're waiting for the Kodak dust to settle? Hope springs eternal...

There are producers of artists mediums, materials and paints that have survived for decades in the small world market at the high end of quality. I'm hoping that film and paper will fall into this specialist niche market and continue to be available indefinitely. Manufacturing would be for the small world market of dedicated uses who will pay the much higher prices necessary to keep it going. Just like what I'm doing with Adox MCC 110 paper via Freestyle? It's very pricy, but I'm glad to have it and will keep buying it.

Meanwhile, we have lost the immense snap shooter base and much of the commercial photography business. The huge volume of the movie industry and most of the remaining commercial users will surely be next to go away. No more subsidies, no more riding on the back of these whales. Looks like it's going to be nothing but a devotee, artist's and serious craftsman's market when these are extinct. I can gladly live with that, if that's what's to be and materials continue to be made.

Thanks for the indispensable factual contributions of Photo Engineer and other insiders on this thread.
Todd F.

Ken Nadvornick
09-02-2012, 04:10 PM
The key thing to remember here is that Kodak is marketing both Kodak still film and the Kodak still film customer to the potential buyers, so we are all literally in the spotlight together at the moment.

So my feeling is lets not blow the chance we have all been talking about for years to get Kodak film in the hands of an eager new owner that could very well want to keep the products in our hands for longer than we thought possible.

Keep buying it, shooting it and for god's sake, keep the vibe as positive as you can, I am going to.

Maybe the chances of getting Kodak film into the hands of that eager new owner might be enhanced if everyone regularly posted to this long-time APUG thread:

What films did you shoot most recently? (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/104764-what-films-did-you-shoot-most-recently-part-2-a.html)

And posted regardless of which brand they used, just to highlight the overall market potential.

Ken

RattyMouse
09-02-2012, 05:51 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to be so condescending but when someone makes totally untrue statements like this:

I have to refute them.

Do you honestly think that the place where you live, where everyone is racing around in Ferraris and lining up to buy $8 boxes of cereal is truly representative of the majority of Shanghai? 23 million people all live like that? There's many wealthy people here, I will agree with you there. But they don't make up the majority of the people. Not by a long shot. And the rest of China is far poorer than Shanghai. Laobaixing make of the majority of the population, and I think that targeting them with cheaper film products could be a good strategy.

I'm glad you've started shooting slide film. I hope your first roll goes well for you. Maybe someday I will see you out shooting the streets of Shanghai. Are there any good labs over there in Pudong?

The average home price in Shanghai is somewhere around 200,000 dollars. People who make $15/day dont buy $200,000 homes. Look at the number of homes in Shanghai and guess if there are more people or less people who can afford homes.

I have not found any labs in Pudong. I use Mr. Film's taobao store. VERY happy with the results. Prices are excellent, processing and shipping very very fast.