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View Full Version : New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36



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zsas
09-16-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm afraid ADOX does not even use "silver rich" in the way you say (as a synonymous of "not-tabular"). Look: So given all that has been said, yes I maintain that "silver rich" is a misnomer, and a gimmick. As a matter of fact, Efke films (i.e. the old ADOX films), which used to be called "silver rich" were the first thin-emulsion films, so they were actually silver-POOR, compared to the previous generations of films, a.k.a. thick emulsion films. Please quote your reference for the so-called "common knowledge" that silver-rich means "cubic."

Michel in my original post above I cited my references. Here they are again:
The Darkroom Cookbook, Third Edition, by Steve Anchell
Basics Photography: Working in Black & White By David Prakel

Prakel said that tabular films, when printed, "...have a different look, when printed up, from an old-fashioned silver-rich film such as Kodak Tri-X Pan..."
Anchell says that silver rich, "...usually indicates an older formulation."


In my post above I had a link to Prakel's book, here it is again:
http://books.google.com/books?id=x4q7DVUXdGQC&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=%22silver+rich%22+film+tabular&source=bl&ots=Q8kEpRRNHJ&sig=AXchT1XpDvVfklZATdEGymD7Epw&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22silver%20rich%22%20film%20tabular&f=false

Richard Sintchak (rich815)
09-16-2012, 10:44 AM
zsas, it's beyond just a descriptor to highlight a factually different aspect, they use it to strongly imply its superior. Like saying, this car is red. Red cars run better and last longer.

"SILVERMAX has an increased silver-content compared to regular films.
This enables him to built up more DMAX and reproduce up to 14 zones in our dedicated SILVERMAX Developer.
This way SILVERMAX catches it all for you: brightest highlights and deepest shaddows."

Michel Hardy-Vallée
09-16-2012, 10:53 AM
The problem with Anchell is that he misinterprets a lot of information. I have his cookbooks, and what he says about cubic v. tabular grains is not exactly sound science, even though he has a lot of otherwise useful information. Prakel makes the same mistake as Efke: TXP is a modern, thin-emulsion film. Not a thick-emulsion film. One of the reasons why silver amounts went down was increased efficiency of emulsions, not just cheapness.
Michel in my original post above I cited my references. Here they are again:The Darkroom Cookbook, Third Edition, by Steve AnchellBasics Photography: Working in Black & White By David PrakelPrakel said that tabular films, when printed, "...have a different look, when printed up, from an old-fashioned silver-rich film such as Kodak Tri-X Pan..."Anchell says that silver rich, "...usually indicates an older formulation."In my post above I had a link to Prakel's book, here it is again:http://books.google.com/books?id=x4q7DVUXdGQC&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=%22silver+rich%22+film+tabular&source=bl&ots=Q8kEpRRNHJ&sig=AXchT1XpDvVfklZATdEGymD7Epw&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22silver%20rich%22%20film%20tabular&f=false

Jerevan
09-16-2012, 12:03 PM
Its fun getting too giggly too quick, isn't it? ;)
What if Adox found a way to make it possible?

Well, if they did - congratulations! :)

As for me being disparaging about the advertisment text - obviously I should have expressed myself in a more eloquent way in my first post.

georg16nik
09-16-2012, 12:12 PM
Henning have already explained it in this thread that the Silvermax spectral sensitivity is identical to Agfa APX 100
... The film is currently in the test phase here in my lab. First results look good. The spectral sensivity of this film is identical to the Agfa APX 100. Best regards, Henning Same way as Scala 200X emulsion is based on the APX 100 emulsion. So, Adox Silvermax, Agfa Scala 200X and Agfa APX 100 share absolutely identical spectral sensitivity. Adox Silvermax sports modified APX 100 emulsion, so does Agfa Scala 200X, so what? The fact that those 3 films share identical spectral sensitivity does not mean they performs the same.

SkipA
09-16-2012, 01:04 PM
zsas, it's beyond just a descriptor to highlight a factually different aspect, they use it to strongly imply its superior. Like saying, this car is red. Red cars run better and last longer.

"SILVERMAX has an increased silver-content compared to regular films.
This enables him to built up more DMAX and reproduce up to 14 zones in our dedicated SILVERMAX Developer.
This way SILVERMAX catches it all for you: brightest highlights and deepest shaddows."

Kodak makes claims of superiority of its tabular grained films, reduction in grain and increase in resolving power, based on its characteristics. Does this bother you too?

michaelbsc
09-16-2012, 01:58 PM
Call me a skeptic but I'm waiting for proof it's not APX100...

How it be bad if it were to be APX100, perhaps in a red dress instead of blues jeans.

Richard Sintchak (rich815)
09-16-2012, 02:50 PM
How it be bad if it were to be APX100, perhaps in a red dress instead of blues jeans.

I've still got a decent amount stockpiled in 35mm and 120 but it's still be great. If it is though then it should just be said.

zsas
09-16-2012, 03:03 PM
The problem with Anchell is that he misinterprets a lot of information. I have his cookbooks, and what he says about cubic v. tabular grains is not exactly sound science, even though he has a lot of otherwise useful information. Prakel makes the same mistake as Efke: TXP is a modern, thin-emulsion film. Not a thick-emulsion film. One of the reasons why silver amounts went down was increased efficiency of emulsions, not just cheapness.
Well at this point we are going to have to agree to disagree, Anchell and Prakel support my point, that traditional films are more silver rich. Your opinion that they are incorrect possibly due to your opinion of these authors making inaccuracies in their texts (not necessarily explicitly related to this topic no less) is taken. If you have a book I can read re this topic, let me know its ISBN.
Look, when Mirko says that this is a silver rich film that has a clear base, it has possibilities that not many films have (1, it is theoretically good for reversal and 2, good for scanning). So with that said, those two attributes, that I dont believe other makers have (I am not sure if Lucky SHD 100, Kentmere 100 and Foma 100 have clear base) are worth calling out. Thus ADOX’s claim that these virtues are worth considering, is fine in my book. If you only print b/w negs in a darkroom using an enlarger, then sure, this film might be no different than the rest, but, it could be different. Heck there are folks round here that can smell the difference between Plus X and HP4+.....
How about some folks actually try the film and let it speak for itself instead of trashing and debating semantics…

Thankfully we are talking about a $4 box of film and not a car or a monochrome M....

If anyone is in Germany for the camera show this week, give Mirko a pat on the back for creating a new film/dev.
I feel like Aggie right now….all she wanted to do is discuss Silver Rich and a massive drama unfolded….:munch:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/5400-silver-rich.html

Michel Hardy-Vallée
09-16-2012, 03:25 PM
Well, what can I say: science IS about semantics.But I don't care enough to say rude or uncouth things like others, so let it be.

ADOX Fotoimpex
09-16-2012, 04:23 PM
As there seems to be confusion about the "silver rhich" claim we make for Silvermax I would like to point out again what has been actually claimed and why.

In our product description for Silvermax we claim that it has more silver than comparable films and that this leads to a higher DMAX and the possibility to get an extended copy range out of it if developed in Silvermax developer.

This is all true.

If you manufacture a film there are certain things you can do to get the desired characteristics. It starts with making the emulsion and it "ends" with the amount of emulsion you apply per sqm. The more you apply, the higher is the silver content and the higher will be the DMAX which the film can build up (same emulsions compared with each other).
So if you don´t object the costs, you can make a "better" film this way if there wouldn´t be an affect on the contrast as well.
Your contrast is also increasing and this limits you in using this as a means of achiving a superior quality.

The aim when manufacturing this film was to achieve a better DMAX on the clear base so the film would be good for reversal processing but not putting too much so it can also be used as a regular negative film.

As said before it is based on Agfa technology and very similar to APX but on a clear base and with a thicker coating (silver rhich).
The spectral sensitivity is the same as identical sensitizers were used (up).
So compared to APX you will get more DMAX and a slightly higher contrast apart ofcourse from the different base.
This is why we formulated the Silvermax developer with it. This developer is soft working similar to our ADOTECH developer and optimized for Silvermax.
If you use both you get instantly very good results and (hopefully) can see the difference to "normal" fims.
While "normal" in this context means a film designed as a negative film with just as much coating (silver cotent) as nevessary to achive good DMAX for regular printing work.

Since all of this is true and since we do feel that we made a very good film here I really see no point why one should be upset about the claim we made.
We are not saying that other films are inferior.
The film is not outrageously priced and what we claim is what <b>differs</b> this film from others.

Even though I said all of this before I think it is good to repeat as well:

- The introduction of this film has nothing to do with what happened at Fotokemikas. The crossing of the timeline is coincidence.
- This film is something special and not our replacement for CHS films
- The fact that we bring this expensive to manufacture film (the clear base allone is 5 times as expensive than PET base) now in 35mm only does not mean that we are not working on other films which then shall be made available in other formats

Have fun taking pictures on whichever film you prefer ;-)

Mirko

pentaxuser
09-16-2012, 04:30 PM
Well explained, Mirko and yes based on the price I saw that was quoted it is very competitively priced. Best of luck with sales. We need companies to develop such products

pentaxuser

Michel Hardy-Vallée
09-16-2012, 05:09 PM
I think we should also add: ALL HAIL THE NEW SCALA!Which is excellent news.

georg16nik
09-16-2012, 05:29 PM
I think we should also add: ALL HAIL THE NEW SCALA!Which is excellent news. You still got Agfa Scala 200x http://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/filme-films/schwarzweissfilmeblackwhite-films/kleinbildfilme-13535mm-films/agfa-scala-sw-kleinbild-diafilmbragfa-scala-13536-bw-slide-film.html Happy New Year and thanks for trashing the thread I started. Next time I will remember where the kids hang out.

Oxleyroad
09-16-2012, 06:10 PM
...
- The fact that we bring this expensive to manufacture film (the clear base allone is 5 times as expensive than PET base) now in 35mm only does not mean that we are not working on other films which then shall be made available in other formats

...
Mirko

Mirko, having just ordered a good number of rolls of 35mm, your last point leads me to hope for bulk 35mm and 16mm film, and there are others looking for 120 and larger sizes from what I have read in this thread. I hope sales of ADOX products are such that these other sizes come to fruition.

laser
09-16-2012, 06:27 PM
It would save a lot of writing if you would just share a D vs LogE curve.

Henning Serger
09-17-2012, 12:25 PM
Would you look at that!

Compare that spectral sensitivity to the APX 100 and Scala. It's EXACTLY the same.

Yes, Thomas, it is the same.
APX 100 and Scala 200X have the same spectral sensivity. That has never been a secret. Agfa has published the data, and all photographers who have used both films and compared them have seen it.
Shoot the Kodak colour test chart with both films and you see immediately that the colour transfer to grey tones is identical.
Not surprising as Scala 200X is based on the APX 100 emulsion.

And I've done that recently in my lab with the Silvermax film and compared it to Scala and APX, and the spectral sensivity results of the three films are identical.
My test results so far: The overall performance of Silvermax is very close to the APX 100 (good news for photographers who like APX 100), and close to Scala 200X, if the film is reversal processed.

Best regards,
Henning

Thomas Bertilsson
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Yes, Thomas, it is the same.
APX 100 and Scala 200X have the same spectral sensivity. That has never been a secret. Agfa has published the data, and all photographers who have used both films and compared them have seen it.
Shoot the Kodak colour test chart with both films and you see immediately that the colour transfer to grey tones is identical.
Not surprising as Scala 200X is based on the APX 100 emulsion.

And I've done that recently in my lab with the Silvermax film and compared it to Scala and APX, and the spectral sensivity results of the three films are identical.
My test results so far: The overall performance of Silvermax is very close to the APX 100 (good news for photographers who like APX 100), and close to Scala 200X, if the film is reversal processed.

Best regards,
Henning

Thanks, Henning.

I was comparing APX100/Scala spectral sensitivity to that of the chart of the new film (post previous to mine). I knew that APX100 and Scala were identical from that perspective.

- Thomas

Michel Hardy-Vallée
09-17-2012, 01:53 PM
You still got Agfa Scala 200x http://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/filme-films/schwarzweissfilmeblackwhite-films/kleinbildfilme-13535mm-films/agfa-scala-sw-kleinbild-diafilmbragfa-scala-13536-bw-slide-film.html Happy New Year and thanks for trashing the thread I started. Next time I will remember where the kids hang out.

That's old stock.

Edit: boo-hoo. It actually made Mirko come out and explain what the real point of "silver rich" instead of letting the usual half-truths hang around.

Boo-double-hoo.

georg16nik
09-17-2012, 02:14 PM
My bad, You are probably right. :)

Henning might be able to share some more info as well.