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View Full Version : New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36



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michaelbsc
09-17-2012, 03:25 PM
My test results so far: The overall performance of Silvermax is very close to the APX 100 (good news for photographers who like APX 100),


Realizing that you probably were not testing with Rodinal, let me ask for an educated guess about performance with Rodinal.

Could I shoot it like APX 100 and develop in Rodinal and get "almost" like old times?

Ok, so I'm a Luddite. Shoot me. After all, I still use film, so I must be crazy. (But look at the company I keep.)

It is kind of an interesting prospect to think about to use one film for old school and new. TMax gives us 14 stops, but sometimes it's honest to the point of being brutal.

This film might play both roles by changing developer. The specialized developer for long range and the old school developer for the archaic.

I gotta get some.

Henning Serger
09-18-2012, 10:49 AM
My bad, You are probably right. :)

Henning might be able to share some more info as well.

Well yes, the Agfa Scala 200X currently sold is original material from the last production run made 2005 in the Agfa plant in Leverkusen, Germany.
It is the same with the current sold AgfaPhoto APX 100: Also original material from the last production run made 2005 in the Agfa plant in Leverkusen, Germany.
In both cases the film stock has been frozen, and due to demand the frozen stock is continuously defrosted and cut, spooled and distributed by Lupus Imaging in Germany.
Due to Mirko Böddecker

http://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/filme-films/schwarzweissfilmeblackwhite-films/kleinbildfilme-13535mm-films/agfa-scala-sw-kleinbild-diafilmbragfa-scala-13536-bw-slide-film.html

they expect Scala 200X stock to last until 2017.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger
09-18-2012, 10:58 AM
Realizing that you probably were not testing with Rodinal, let me ask for an educated guess about performance with Rodinal.

Could I shoot it like APX 100 and develop in Rodinal and get "almost" like old times?


Hello Michael,

so far I have not tested this film with Rodinal.

But here are the recommendations from Adox:

Starzeiten für andere Filmentwickler bei 20°C:

ADONAL/Rodinal 1+25: 8 Min.
ADONAL/Rodinal 1+50: 12 Min.
ATOMAL: 8-10 Min.
D 76/ID 11: 9 Min.
HC-110: 7 Min.
FX-39: 8 Min.
XTOL: 7 Min.
_____________________________________
Kipprhythmus:
Die ersten 30 Sekunden kippen und danach 4 mal die Minute.
Für andere Entwickler als Startzeit die Angabe für APX 100 verwenden und in 10% Schritten reduzieren!

Best regards,
Henning

Richard Sintchak (rich815)
09-18-2012, 11:22 AM
Hello Michael,

so far I have not tested this film with Rodinal.

But here are the recommendations from Adox:

Starzeiten für andere Filmentwickler bei 20°C:

ADONAL/Rodinal 1+25: 8 Min.
ADONAL/Rodinal 1+50: 12 Min.
ATOMAL: 8-10 Min.
D 76/ID 11: 9 Min.
HC-110: 7 Min.
FX-39: 8 Min.
XTOL: 7 Min.
_____________________________________
Kipprhythmus:
Die ersten 30 Sekunden kippen und danach 4 mal die Minute.
Für andere Entwickler als Startzeit die Angabe für APX 100 verwenden und in 10% Schritten reduzieren!

Best regards,
Henning

APX100 times...

Henning Serger
09-18-2012, 11:49 AM
APX100 times...

Well, it depends....;).
The original Agfa recommendations (data sheet) for Rodinal 1+50 for example are 12:30 Min. for a Gamma of 0,55; 14:30 Min. for a Gamma of 0,60; and 17:00 minutes for a Gamma of 0,65.

Best regards,
Henning

madgardener
09-18-2012, 04:51 PM
As someone who has never tried APX, scala or otherwise, I am just happy that there is a new film coming out. I can't wait to get my hands on it! I am very much looking forward to trying out this film.

Thomas Bertilsson
09-18-2012, 05:05 PM
Well, it depends....;).
The original Agfa recommendations (data sheet) for Rodinal 1+50 for example are 12:30 Min. for a Gamma of 0,55; 14:30 Min. for a Gamma of 0,60; and 17:00 minutes for a Gamma of 0,65.

Best regards,
Henning

No news there. Of course developing time alters contrast. That would be true for the newer recommendations from Agfa, (but perhaps not published), and film and developer combinations in general, regardless of manufacture.

In this sheet - Click link (http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/agfa_tech/FPD1e.pdf) - Agfa give only the processing starting times for γ 0.65, which is, incidentally, 17 minutes at 1+50 dilution of Rodinal, like you suggest above.

I think the developing times in combination with the spectral sensitivity being identical to Agfa's published information for APX 100 is just further evidence of one of two things:
1. Either ADOX was very lazy in the way they published their information, and simply copied Agfa's numbers for APX 100, hoping nobody would notice.
2. It is APX 100.

All we need now is a film characteristic curve, lain right next to one of the APX 100 to cement that this is in fact nothing other than APX 100 film.

michaelbsc
09-18-2012, 09:05 PM
...All we need now is a film characteristic curve, lain right next to one of the APX 100 to cement that this is in fact nothing other than APX 100 film.

Well, I would postulate that the change in substrate negates the claim that it's "nothing other than APX 100" right off the bat. If they were to put it in boxes that said APX 100 on the side there would be a hue and cry to that effect from the peanut gallery immediately. ("Ewweeee!! That's not APX 100! It's got that weird base! They used a different Antihalation layer for it! The Sirens of Titan will bounce off it differently!" Ya-da ya-da ya-da.)

But I'll wager one could safely say that it is "substantially" APX 100, which is exactly what I want. Maybe the emulsion is a little thicker for the extra DMax Mirko mentions. Maybe not. But if it's 95% of APX 100, compared to 0% of APX 100 that's available except for a few rolls in my freezer, then I'm good with that.

But I still want 120 size later.

MB

Flux
09-18-2012, 11:20 PM
2. It is APX 100.


it seems Mirko has to repeat himself endlessly:



As said before it is based on Agfa technology and very similar to APX but on a clear base and with a thicker coating (silver rhich).
The spectral sensitivity is the same as identical sensitizers were used (up).
So compared to APX you will get more DMAX and a slightly higher contrast apart ofcourse from the different base.

MDR
09-19-2012, 03:25 AM
To play the devils (thomas :devil: ) advocate here, clear acetate base was used for Scala and tinted acetate base for APX both are pretty much the same film. Foto Impex still sells both films. As has been mentioned quiet often manufactured or made by Inoviscoat only means that more than 50% of added value has to come from them nothing more and nothing less. If it were a new emulsion it would be available in different sizes and not in 35mm only. The new Super 8 Film could be rebadged APX as well, Wittner Kinotechnik sells APX 100 in Super8 Cartridges.

The introduction of Silvermax is still a good thing in my opinion, the internet is full of threads about this film creating propaganda for film and countering the effect of the film is dead song. So still congratulation and a big thank you to Mirko and his crew.

Dominik

Flux
09-19-2012, 04:17 AM
If it were a new emulsion it would be available in different sizes and not in 35mm only.

They might make only one size, because they have the base for 135 from Agfas stock left. So there are no more costs for the base. That's why the film is so affordable. Since the base is very expensive it might be too risky to order bases for other formats.

MDR
09-19-2012, 04:53 AM
The base is not bought or coated in 35mm but in larger sizes, you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras, in LF it might become a problem. The Impex argument is BS sorry. If they said we only coat and sell 35mm because that's what people buy okay, the base argument is pardon the pun of base. Even Kentmere 100 and 400 are available in 120 size as Rollei RPX.

I am still not saying that the new Silvermax is not a new film. But I am pissed that they only offer it in 35mm.

Dominik

georg16nik
09-19-2012, 05:10 AM
Dominik, are You sure Rollei RPX and Kentmere 100 135 and 400 135 use the same base?
Adox might have a better outlook about whats selling faster and they might want to sell some 135 in order to finance larger formats operation.

Henning Serger
09-19-2012, 05:19 AM
In this sheet - Click link (http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/agfa_tech/FPD1e.pdf) - Agfa give only the processing starting times for γ 0.65, which is, incidentally, 17 minutes at 1+50 dilution of Rodinal, like you suggest above.


Thomas, here is the original Agfa APX 100 data sheet which includes the gamma - time curves:

http://www.maco-photo.de/files/images/agfa_apx100.pdf

Reading all the "conspiracy theories" here I have to smile and can only shake my head ;).
I've used this film. As I have very clearly said, it is similar to APX 100 and Scala 200X, but not completely identical.
I've already tested it in two reversal processes, the Wehner and Scala process.
For example Scala 200X in the Scala process gives a light warm tone, but Silvermax has a neutral tone in this process, and a bit less speed.

Best regards,
Henning

Flux
09-19-2012, 05:26 AM
The base is not bought or coated in 35mm but in larger sizes, you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras,

Then indeed it is a pity they do not offer other sizes. But Impex surely has a better insight which formats sell well than us.

I do not understand how you come to the conclusion that it must be an old emulsion, because it is only offered in one size. You still think that it is an old film with new label?

Henning Serger
09-19-2012, 05:29 AM
Even Kentmere 100 and 400 are available in 120 size as Rollei RPX.

Dominik

Hello Dominik,

No, Kentmere 100 / 400 and Rollei RPX 100 / 400 are definitely not the same films, but different emulsions. If you compare them directly side by side you will see it.
Independant developer manufacturers like Wolfgang Moersch ( www.moersch-photochemie.de ) and Heribert Schain from Spur (www.spur-photo.com ) have intensively tested both the two Kentmere and the two RPX films and say that the emulsions are different (and therefore also different developing times in the Moersch and Spur developers).
Another friend of mine has also tested these films in direct comparison and has confirmed the results from Moersch and Spur.

The RPX films are coated by Harman/Ilfordphoto.
But as Simon Galley always very clearly has said, they will not offer their original Ilford and Kentmere products to other companies.
But they do manufacturing for other companies with different products.

Best regards,
Henning

MDR
09-19-2012, 05:30 AM
Thank you georg16nik for pointing out the obvious they are not coated on the same base.
According to Adox the Art series CHS 50 (Efke 50) was coated on the same 100 micron base. According to the Rollei/Maco Datasheet their Retro 100 Tonal was also coated on the same base in both 35 and 120. So using one base for two sizes is possible.
"they might want to sell some 135 in order to finance larger formats operation" is answered by Mirko on the Impex site "SILVERMAX is only available as a 35mm film and will not be manufactured in other formats."

Henning I've never used either film but according to the maco-direct site they are the same film:
"....Sobald die Bestände des Retro 100 verkauft sein werden, bietet Maco den RPX 100 statt dessen an.
Im Detail:
Als 135 Kleinbildfilm gemeinsam mit Ilford als Kentmere 100,.." Source: http://www.macodirect.de/rollei-120brzur-zeit-nicht-lager-verfgbar-p-2272.html

Flux: No I am not sure that this is a new film, but I certainly hope that it is.

I wish Mirko and Foto Impex the best of luck but until it's 100% certain that this is not the old APX/Scala but a new film I won't be ordering any.

Dominik

Henning Serger
09-19-2012, 05:48 AM
Source: http://www.macodirect.de/rollei-120brzur-zeit-nicht-lager-verfgbar-p-2272.html
Dominik

Dominik, sorry, but I can't find any statement on the Maco website and the RPX data sheets that RPX is identical to the Kentmere films.

Best regards,
Henning

georg16nik
09-19-2012, 05:49 AM
Thanks, Henning. I saw that the SILVERMAX developer is already available http://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/fotochemie-chemistry/schwarzweiss-filmentwicklerbw-film-developers/adox-silvermax-entwickler-250ml-fuer-75-literbradox-silvermax-developer-250ml-to-make-75-liters.html
Whats the smell like? ;)
Dominik, You know that Efke changed from acetate to poly and that might explains it for CHS and the Tonal films.
Thanks, Bundesphotograph., last year I shot a few rolls RPX100 120 batch#0331 exp 01/2016 but haven't checked the pdf files in much detail..

MDR
09-19-2012, 06:04 AM
Henning if you follow the link to the Maco-direct (german not english site) this text should have appeared,:

"Maco stellte bei der Photokina 2010 den RPX100 als einen sehr geeigneten Nachfolger zum Rollei Retro 100 vor. Sowohl als 135 als auch 120.

Sobald die Bestände des Retro 100 verkauft sein werden, bietet Maco den RPX 100 statt dessen an.
Im Detail:
Als 135 Kleinbildfilm gemeinsam mit Ilford als Kentmere 100,
als 120 Rollfilm unverändert als RPX100."

Georg I am well aware that they are on a Polyester/Estar Base but even when coating on Polyester one usually uses a different thickness for different film sizes. In case of Tonal and CHS LF Formats are on a different base but not the smaller Formats.

Dominik