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View Full Version : New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36



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Henning Serger
09-19-2012, 05:47 AM
Henning if you follow the link to the Maco-direct (german not english site) this text should have appeared,:
Dominik

Dominik, such a text does not appear if I click on their website.
I remember one statement of the former Maco Photo Products CEO (he has left the company one year ago) in a German forum, in which he said the films are the same.That has been short after the introduction, if I remember it right.
AFAIK this statement has been corrected when the first side by side comparisons were made.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger
09-19-2012, 06:52 AM
Dominik, thanks for the info via pm; looks like a browser problem here at me with this site.
The statement on the German site is outdated (on the English site it has been already deleted), update necessary. I will be at Photokina this week and tell them.

Best regards,
Henning

K-G
09-19-2012, 08:39 AM
The base is not bought or coated in 35mm but in larger sizes, you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras, in LF it might become a problem. The Impex argument is BS sorry. If they said we only coat and sell 35mm because that's what people buy okay, the base argument is pardon the pun of base. Even Kentmere 100 and 400 are available in 120 size as Rollei RPX.

I am still not saying that the new Silvermax is not a new film. But I am pissed that they only offer it in 35mm.

Dominik

Most other films available in both 35 mm and 120 size are coated on different base material. Check the technical specifications for both Kodak and Ilford films and you will find ( on those places where it is listed ) that 120 film is coated on a thinner base than 35 mm . Only selling 35 mm film makes sence if that is the base that is available. If the entire production is sold out in a month ( what a dream ! ), I am quite sure Mirko will consider both 35 mm and 120 size.

Karl-Gustaf

Richard Sintchak (rich815)
09-19-2012, 08:54 AM
This debate can be ended. Someone from Adox simply come out as say this:

"I unequivocally and definitively state that the Silvermax film is not APX100,"

Simple.

MDR
09-19-2012, 09:31 AM
Karl Gustaf I am aware that most films are coated on bases with a different thickness for 35 and 120 I said as much in my post. Mirko claimed that they couldn't produce 120 films because of the cost for different base material and I wanted to show that it is possible to use the same base for both 35 and 120 film by coming up with examples. The base is cut after coating and not before coating. Furthermore Mirko has stated that Silvermax won't produced in any other sizes.:(

I also wished them success for silvermax numerous times.

Dominik

Thomas Bertilsson
09-19-2012, 09:43 AM
Karl Gustaf I am aware that most films are coated on bases with a different thickness for 35 and 120 I said as much in my post. Mirko claimed that they couldn't produce 120 films because of the cost for different base material and I wanted to show that it is possible to use the same base for both 35 and 120 film by coming up with examples. The base is cut after coating and not before coating. Furthermore Mirko has stated that Silvermax won't produced in any other sizes.:(

I also wished them success for silvermax numerous times.

Dominik

Wasn't Rollei Retro 100 and 400 cut and furnished in both 120 and 35mm size from the same base material (intended for 35mm)?

laser
09-19-2012, 09:54 AM
Has anyone seen a DLog E curve for this film?

Thomas Bertilsson
09-19-2012, 10:23 AM
Has anyone seen a DLog E curve for this film?

When one is made available, if it looks anything like the attached, then we'll know for sure.

MDR
09-19-2012, 10:36 AM
Thomas according to the Maco Datasheet they used a different base material thickness for 35 and 120 film
35mm = 120Ám, rollfilm = 95Ám, cellulose triacetate
If I remember correctly there was a discussion on Apug about Retro having the same base in 35 and 120 and maco is known to be a little creative.

Thomas no we don't according to them it is a slightly modified APX 100, so it could share the same characteristics.:whistling:

Good film A big thank you to Maco for having offered the film in 120.

Dominik

michaelbsc
09-19-2012, 11:22 AM
Wasn't Rollei Retro 100 and 400 cut and furnished in both 120 and 35mm size from the same base material (intended for 35mm)?


Yes, that's correct. It was a 35mm master roll that had not been slit into pancakes yet. So the deal was struck to cut it into 120 size and confectioned with backing paper on spools instead of in cartridges.

I still have an unopened box of it in my freezer. (I am not a hoarder. I am not a hoarder. I am not a hoarder.)

It's just a tad finicky to get on a Patterson reel, but once you get the hang of it there's no problem, and it feeds fine in any camera I've used it in.

MB

michaelbsc
09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
This debate can be ended. Someone from Adox simply come out as say this:

"I unequivocally and definitively state that the Silvermax film is not APX100,"

Simple.

I thought Mirko had already said that.

I thought they were quite clear that it is absolutely based on APX 100, but is is not APX 100. So in my mind we should be thinking of it like it's APX 100's brother.

If you stand me next to my brother and look at us it is abundantly clear that 1) we are not exactly the same person, and 2) we are very closely related to each other, probably from the same parents.

I suspect if we were to get two camera bodies with matched lenses (*), and put a roll of SilverMax in one and a roll of real APX 100 in the other and shoot the scene, then develop in the same tank, we would get extremely similar but discernibly different results.

(*) It's a sad comment that I suspect 35mm camera equipment has gotten so cheap that we can easily try this except for the availability the roll of APX 100.

Thomas Bertilsson
09-19-2012, 12:10 PM
I thought Mirko had already said that.

I thought they were quite clear that it is absolutely based on APX 100, but is is not APX 100. So in my mind we should be thinking of it like it's APX 100's brother.

If you stand me next to my brother and look at us it is abundantly clear that 1) we are not exactly the same person, and 2) we are very closely related to each other, probably from the same parents.

I suspect if we were to get two camera bodies with matched lenses (*), and put a roll of SilverMax in one and a roll of real APX 100 in the other and shoot the scene, then develop in the same tank, we would get extremely similar but discernibly different results.

(*) It's a sad comment that I suspect 35mm camera equipment has gotten so cheap that we can easily try this except for the availability the roll of APX 100.

Or better yet, use a step wedge and then plot curves from both films.

Richard Sintchak (rich815)
09-19-2012, 02:55 PM
I thought Mirko had already said that.



I must have missed that. They seem to imply its different but seem to skirt actually directly saying such.

michaelbsc
09-19-2012, 07:52 PM
I must have missed that. They seem to imply its different but seem to skirt actually directly saying such.

See post 129 this thread, which refers back to Mirko's comment earlier that I can't actually find right now.

It's based in APX 100. Slightly thicker emulsion with higher Dmax and contrast. Different base (clear). Same spectral response (because it's the same chemical emulsion just coated thicker).

My earlier comment about antihalation layer was a tongue-in-cheek joke about the peanut gallery responses we would hear if they tried to claim that it truly was APX 100. I have no evidence that the antihalation layer is the same or different. It was a joke.

But again, I'll say that I think we can treat it like APX 100 and get "substantially" the same results as if it were the real thing.

I think Thomas's idea of a step wedge is great.

laser
09-19-2012, 10:23 PM
All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

ADOX Fotoimpex
09-20-2012, 02:02 AM
you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras
This is not correct.
There has been one attempt in history of a company converting 135micron thick triacetate into 120 films and the the product showed severe problems. There were thousands of claims.
No other manufacturer ever did this.
Apart from the problems you will run into this is only possible if you spool the films manually as far as I am informed. 120 spooling machines (for sure ours) will reject this base as the diameter of the film will be out of tolerance. There will be jams in the film guides as well.
Due to the known issues, manual spooling is for us no alternative for a premium line product.

What has been tried more sucesfully is to use the thinner but very stable 100 micron PET for 120 and 35mm film (the other way around).
This leads to problems in perforating unless you adapt your machines specially to it which is costly and you end up with lightpiping in the 35mm films.
We have sold the CHS films this way but we feel that a quality product cannot be sold with such an amount of lightpiping so we would not consider this for a premium line product.
We undertook several research coatings in this field and tried with differend anti halation and backside blocking coatings but the lightpiping was not possible to control.
So we decided to keep 35mm on triacetate.

All larger manufacturers use:

100 micron PET or triacetate for 120 film
135 micron triacetate (greybase or clear) for 35mm film
170 micron PET or triacetate for sheetfilm

As far as Silvermax is concerned I alreday stated in the beginning that we used up old stock materials from Agfa in order to manufacturer this film and this is the reason why it is neither a rollfilm, nor a sheetfilm nor APX 100 which is coated onto greybase.

Fomas R100 btw is made only as a 35mm film out of the same reasons.

Mirko

MDR
09-20-2012, 03:01 AM
Thank you Mirko for answering the question.

Dominik

Sal Santamaura
09-20-2012, 10:22 AM
...There has been one attempt in history of a company converting 135micron thick triacetate into 120 films and the the product showed severe problems. There were thousands of claims....No other manufacturer ever did this....All larger manufacturers use:

100 micron PET or triacetate for 120 film
135 micron triacetate (greybase or clear) for 35mm film
170 micron PET or triacetate for sheetfilm...It's 125 micron, not 135, but Ilford uses the same acetate master roll for both 35 mm and 120 Delta 3200. See the second and third paragraphs on page one here:


http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/201071394723115.pdf

It's been a long time since I shot it in 120 but, when I did, it was tinted gray just like 35 mm.

laser
09-20-2012, 12:09 PM
All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

Thomas Bertilsson
09-20-2012, 12:25 PM
All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

You could always purchase a roll of APX 100 and a roll of Silvermax each, expose a step wedge, and plot the graphs yourself if you have a densitometer.