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wildbillbugman
11-07-2013, 03:44 PM
Or just two differently sensitized emulsion.
Denise is having success with a one dye, panchro system.

Photo Engineer
11-07-2013, 03:50 PM
Bill;

A two dye panchro system will work due to the blue speed inherent in all AgX emulsions. In fact, with the right dye, a single dye panchro system is possible, but I have not found any good dyes on the open market for this type of work.

As for having achieved a given sensitivity, it is always useful to have separation exposures or wedge spectrograms to prove any given sensitivity. I learned that the hard way many many years ago.

PE

kb3lms
11-20-2013, 06:39 PM
Now that I am finally getting to a point that I will be able to try out my small stock of Eastman 2718 (aka Stains-All) dye, what is a good stock solution? My plan is to make up a 25ml dropper bottle to use for my experiments. I was thinking about a 1% stock solution in ethanol. Here is my reasoning:

My emulsions almost always use 6g of AgNO3. At a molar mass of 169.87 for AgNO3, that gives 4% of a mole of silver. So if I was to use the dye at, say, 100mg / mole Ag, 6g AgNO3 would require 4mg of dye. (100mg/mole is a starting point. IDK what will actually work but 100mg make the numbers work out easier.)

A 1% solution of dye should contain 10mg dye per ml, so I could use 0.4ml stock solution or about 8 drops.

Sound OK?

-- Jason

Photo Engineer
11-20-2013, 11:09 PM
I would use a more dilute solution so that you can measure it out more accurately. After all, 4 ml is easier to measure that 0.4 ml.

It is the word "about" that bothers me.

PE

kb3lms
11-21-2013, 08:27 AM
OK, that is a thought. I suppose the extra ethanol wouldn't hurt since I always add some at coating time anyway.

I should have added that this batch of dropper bottles I have has ml marking on the droppers and also since it is roughly 20 drops to the ml that is why I said about 8 drops.

I also have 1ml syringes.

Anyway, then it seems like I am thinking along the right lines? At the cost of this stuff I'd rather not mess it up! (Actually, what I have was pretty cheap, but to replace it won't be.)

Thank you for the info!

Photo Engineer
11-21-2013, 01:39 PM
You are doing OK.

PE

wildbillbugman
11-21-2013, 09:41 PM
Hi Jason,
I am super-interested in your results regarding KODAK Stains-All. But is it something that can still be purchased? Do you have a structure for it?
Bill

Hexavalent
11-21-2013, 10:57 PM
Stains-all is a fairly common histological dye with an impressive chemical name: 1-Ethyl-2-[3-(1-ethylnaphtho[1,2-d]thiazolin-2-ylidene)-2-methylpropenyl]naphtho[1,2-d]thiazolium bromide, 3,3′-Diethyl-9-methyl-4,5,4′,5′-dibenzothiacarbocyanine .

Whew! Stains-all is easier to pronounce. :) Note that it's a carbocyanine.

Sigma-Aldrich: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sial/e9379?lang=en&region=US

kb3lms
11-22-2013, 01:00 PM
Bill,

It'll be a little bit before I have results. First, I have to get the freakin mice out of my workshop and reorganize. :laugh: It got cold all of a sudden and of course they all wanted to come inside!

Stains-all is readily available from a number of suppliers. There's Sigman and Fisher, of course, but Lab Depot, Chemsavers, and other such places list it as well. It sells in the range of $100/gram. Search under "Stains-All", not the impressive chemical name. The CAS Number is 7423-31-6.

I've started wondering if my doctor (as in MD) could order these histological dyes from their suppliers? He does some of his own lab work with microscopes, etc, for fun, I guess; he has a whole little lab setup in the back of his office building. Most of the dyes we are interested in have some use in that field as well.

-- Jason

wildbillbugman
11-22-2013, 11:53 PM
Thanks Jason,
I may try to get some of this dye. I am currently doing more experiments with the Sands sda3057. Using it as a single, panchro dye. Should have some results by Saturday. If I get it to work, I will run with it, despite its high price. Bill

wildbillbugman
11-22-2013, 11:57 PM
I hope that you are getting rid of the mice in a humane ,non-lethal way.

rwhb12
11-23-2013, 04:04 AM
So, PE, what is the optimum dye colour for Panchromatic emulsions please, if you were aiming for a single dye solution? I guess every emulsion had a different blue?

Russ

kb3lms
11-23-2013, 09:41 AM
I think I will have to put out a want-ad for a cat.

wildbillbugman
11-23-2013, 01:52 PM
Jason,
I was not going to put this out until I had more data, But as long as you have asked PE the question , I will say this. An Ag/Br emulsion (with no I) containing SDA3057, is red. Addition of NH4I causes the emulsion to immediately turn to a lavender-blue. Of course, I determined this by pulling small samples and looking at them under white light. The containers of emulsion are always in the dark, or under IR light.

wildbillbugman
11-23-2013, 02:13 PM
Question for PE,
PE, I now have 2 sets of glass panels waiting for evaluation. Set 1 is a 50/50 blend of 2 emulsions containing SDA3057 . Emulsion 1 contains no Iodine and is red.Emulsion 2 is emulsion 1 plus Iodine and is lavender in color.
Panel set 2 is Pure emulsion 2 ( contain I) (lavender) coated first. Then a second coat of pure emulsion 1 (no I) (red in color).
Any predictions?

kb3lms
11-23-2013, 06:29 PM
Bill et al,

That wasn't me that asked about the color, but I always wondered about that. Many b/w films you buy are that purple-blue color. The ortho emulsion I plan to coat later this week is an ammonia digest AgBrI, with the I at 3%. Erythrosine was added to the AgNO3/NH4 before precipitation as advised by Glafkides. So, from what you are saying I ought to expect the emulsion to be that b/w film purple-blue color?

Poor weather is forecast for tomorrow so I will be in the darkroom setting up. I will probably mix some 2718. So this question comes up:

LIGHT SENTIVITY

Things I have read and the label on the dye bottle says the stains-all dye is sensitive to light. The bottle itself is opaque. When it says light sensitive, how sensitive are they talking about? Can I mix in room light (avoiding undue exposure) and just store in the dark or is this so sensitive I must work by safe light?

And if safe light would have to be used I guess it would have to be blue?

How is the SDA3057 mixed?

Any guidance appreciated!

-- Jason

Photo Engineer
11-23-2013, 09:25 PM
Question for PE,
PE, I now have 2 sets of glass panels waiting for evaluation. Set 1 is a 50/50 blend of 2 emulsions containing SDA3057 . Emulsion 1 contains no Iodine and is red.Emulsion 2 is emulsion 1 plus Iodine and is lavender in color.
Panel set 2 is Pure emulsion 2 ( contain I) (lavender) coated first. Then a second coat of pure emulsion 1 (no I) (red in color).
Any predictions?

Bill;

Without a good wedge spectrogram it will be difficult to evaluate the results unless you use Wratten separation filters for R/G/B. So, lets just wait.

The no Iodide emulsion may be too slow to register properly at the green wavelengths.

PE

Photo Engineer
11-23-2013, 09:27 PM
Bill et al,

That wasn't me that asked about the color, but I always wondered about that. Many b/w films you buy are that purple-blue color. The ortho emulsion I plan to coat later this week is an ammonia digest AgBrI, with the I at 3%. Erythrosine was added to the AgNO3/NH4 before precipitation as advised by Glafkides. So, from what you are saying I ought to expect the emulsion to be that b/w film purple-blue color?

Poor weather is forecast for tomorrow so I will be in the darkroom setting up. I will probably mix some 2718. So this question comes up:

LIGHT SENTIVITY

Things I have read and the label on the dye bottle says the stains-all dye is sensitive to light. The bottle itself is opaque. When it says light sensitive, how sensitive are they talking about? Can I mix in room light (avoiding undue exposure) and just store in the dark or is this so sensitive I must work by safe light?

And if safe light would have to be used I guess it would have to be blue?

How is the SDA3057 mixed?

Any guidance appreciated!

-- Jason


Jason;

For starters, please be careful with both heat and light! I refrigerate all of my dyes at 4C.

Most all dyes can be handled for a short time in subdued tungsten light or a safelight.

Best of luck.

PE

wildbillbugman
11-23-2013, 10:13 PM
Jason,
If erythrosine is your only dye, the emulsion would be sensitive to blue and green only. Therefor a RED light is called for. You would never use a blue light with any Ag/Br emulsion, with or without I. All of these emulsions are sensitive to blue. I am not familiar with the Stain All dye. But if it is truly panchromatiic, I would use a cheap($150) "Night Vision" monocle with an IR light source. Barring this, I would use a red light pointed away from your work area and as faint as you can handle.
SDA3057 - I mix a 1% solution in 100% methanol In a brown bottle and store it in the freezer. A dry dye in pure form should be able to withstand a brief exposure to light.
Bill

wildbillbugman
11-23-2013, 10:34 PM
PE I use glass RGB separation filters(custom and pricy) for both testing and "real*photography. I normally photograph a KODAK color chart under full spectrum artificial light to shoot my test plates. With no filter, then each RGB filter.
Bill