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E. von Hoegh
11-19-2013, 09:11 AM
Hi Dan

I think the moral of the story is not to ask questions that you might feel the need to answer
can you advise on any subject that would be suitable for me to ask about

I am well aware of lens systems such as the Frazier lens which can get an amazing result and I am well aware of the methods used to get there

I was looking for something different hoping that somebody would say a Zeiss this or a Leitz that or whatever has a very good performance when stopped right downpresumably a plastic holga lens will not perform as well as a Zeiss macro under these conditions
it therefore follows that somewhere there is the best design for high stop deep focus work be it a tessar, planar or whatever or maybe just maybe something I don't know about

I do not know what methods steve downer used to get the results in the video i posted I can guess but I don't know

the reason I posted the question in the apug macro section was so that somebody who knows more than me might be able to advise me on my actual question
not so that you can guess at my education

and as for "Troll"

maybe you should look up the definition and think about if it applies to you

robin

Unfortunately, all lenses from all manufacturers obey the same laws of physics.

rbrigham
11-19-2013, 09:33 AM
hi dan

curmudgeon. good word
seems you and I have some things in common

I know that on paper high stops do not add up
but presumably some lenses are better than others

it's for a bugs eye view shot but basically
the director wants it shot on a 50mm
it will be similar shots to the video I posted
split diopter a and focus stacking are not an option
the camera will be hand held and basically flown around as if it's a bee or what ever
focus pulling will not be possible
We will probably end up shooting on a 16mm camera with a wide lens stopped all the way down

regards robin

Dan Fromm
11-19-2013, 10:45 AM
hi dan

curmudgeon. good word
seems you and I have some things in common

I know that on paper high stops do not add up
but presumably some lenses are better than others

Well, some lenses are better wide open than others, but stop any of 'em down much and image quality goes away.


it's for a bugs eye view shot but basically
the director wants it shot on a 50mm
it will be similar shots to the video I posted
split diopter a and focus stacking are not an option
the camera will be hand held and basically flown around as if it's a bee or what ever
focus pulling will not be possible
We will probably end up shooting on a 16mm camera with a wide lens stopped all the way down


The shots in the video were all at magnifications (for the close-up subject) smaller than 1:1 and many, as seen in the video, were fuzzy all over. The fuzziness may be due to the steps between the images as originally shot and the video.

Many still photographers have a fantasy to the effect that shooting at low magnification and then enlarging more will give more DoF in the final print than shooting at high magnification and enlarging less. The gains are real but negligible. And that's what shooting on 16 will get you. Still, if you have the time to experiment before shooting for real by all means try it out.

I b'lieve that Oxford Scientific Films shot mainly 16 -- at least the OSF crew I once ran into in Panama did -- and that they sometimes got the effect you're after. I don't know where OSF's doors are, let alone which one to knock on, but if you have the time you might want to ask them what they did.

Cheers,

Dan

dynachrome
11-20-2013, 09:58 PM
Lenses made for larger formats tend to be slower to begin with. A technique I have tried is to use a lens intended for medium format shooting or enlarging with extension on a 35mm camera. A 60mm f/4 enlarging lens needs only two stops to make it to f/8. A 55mm f/2.8 macro lens needs three stops to make it to f/8. If I need to use any front standard bellows movement the 60/4 [Bogen Wide Angle] gives me a little extra coverage because it was made for enlarging 60X60 rather than 24X36. I prefer enlarging lenses for this purpose. A lens with a helical mount or maybe even a built in shutter will involve hanging a lot of weight at the front end of the bellows. Another lens I have used this way is a 150/5.6 Rodagon.

AgX
11-21-2013, 02:49 AM
Lenses made for larger formats tend to be slower to begin with. A technique I have tried is to use a lens intended for medium format shooting or enlarging with extension on a 35mm camera. A 60mm f/4 enlarging lens needs only two stops to make it to f/8. A 55mm f/2.8 macro lens needs three stops to make it to f/8.

What is your idea behind this?

Dan Fromm
11-21-2013, 08:34 AM
Lenses made for larger formats tend to be slower to begin with. A technique I have tried is to use a lens intended for medium format shooting or enlarging with extension on a 35mm camera. A 60mm f/4 enlarging lens needs only two stops to make it to f/8. A 55mm f/2.8 macro lens needs three stops to make it to f/8. If I need to use any front standard bellows movement the 60/4 [Bogen Wide Angle] gives me a little extra coverage because it was made for enlarging 60X60 rather than 24X36. I prefer enlarging lenses for this purpose. A lens with a helical mount or maybe even a built in shutter will involve hanging a lot of weight at the front end of the bellows. Another lens I have used this way is a 150/5.6 Rodagon.

Um, which question are you answering? I ask because the OP, a cinematographer, eventually came back and explained that he is looking for a deep focus lens with which to take a bug's eye view shot with a flying camera in which very near subjects and the distant horizon will both be in focus. He posted a link to a video that shows more-or-less what he wants to accomplish.

The ways still photographers get very near and distant in focus simultaneously can't be used with a flying camera. Focus stacking is out too, except perhaps for claymation.

Ask Google to find deep focus lens. Also "deep focus lens" and Frazier. The things exist, there's no magic involved (just a lot of money), and still photographers rarely if ever use them.

Jim Jones
11-21-2013, 10:38 AM
Lennart Nilsson has done some amazing macro photography, although often with custom designed and constructed lenses. I don't have a link available to any of his technical information at the moment.

Dan Fromm
11-21-2013, 11:14 AM
Lennart Nilsson has done some amazing macro photography, although often with custom designed and constructed lenses. I don't have a link available to any of his technical information at the moment.

Jim, here http://www.lennartnilsson.com/close_to_nature.html are some examples of his work. Nice, but not what the OP asked about. Look at the video he posted a link to.

wildbill
11-21-2013, 11:46 AM
Lenses made for larger formats tend to be slower to begin with. A technique I have tried is to use a lens intended for medium format shooting or enlarging with extension on a 35mm camera. A 60mm f/4 enlarging lens needs only two stops to make it to f/8. A 55mm f/2.8 macro lens needs three stops to make it to f/8. If I need to use any front standard bellows movement the 60/4 [Bogen Wide Angle] gives me a little extra coverage because it was made for enlarging 60X60 rather than 24X36. I prefer enlarging lenses for this purpose. A lens with a helical mount or maybe even a built in shutter will involve hanging a lot of weight at the front end of the bellows. Another lens I have used this way is a 150/5.6 Rodagon.

the op is looking for a lens to use on a motion picture camera, which doesn't have bellows.

AgX
11-21-2013, 01:31 PM
On a professional cine-camera one can mount a lot of optics and accessories including a bellows. Dan has been hinting at special optics including extension tubes already.

wildbill
11-21-2013, 02:20 PM
On a professional cine-camera one can mount a lot of optics and accessories including a bellows. Dan has been hinting at special optics including extension tubes already.

They also don't have the money. Having worked in the motion picture industry for quite a while, I've never seen bellows attached to a movie camera. I'm sure it has been done but with tilt/shift/macro lenses available.......
How would bellows help in this situation?

MDR
12-03-2013, 02:31 PM
The Roessel copy of the Frazier system (T-Rex) should be cheaper. Dan has mentioned a split diopter this might be a good idea btw what 35mm camera will you use this is not unimportant since not every lens is suitable for every mount come to think of it most adaptors will cost more than a few days panavision, Arri or cpt rental.
Agx had a good idea about the bellow you can use enlarger lenses and repro lenses that do stop down to f45 etc...

Lomo made a 75mm macro lens with with 1:1 magnification Oct 19 Mount and it uses a bellow in macro mode. RAF Camera sold them for around 500$

Good luck