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View Full Version : On the Table: European BPX: Pros, Cons and sound off



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cowanw
12-10-2013, 05:14 PM
ahhh.
thank you Steve.

Ken Nadvornick
12-10-2013, 10:31 PM
If I made this impression I apologize sincerely!!

No, no. Not you, Bert. The others. Certainly no need for you to apologize.

When I said earlier that people of different cultures are often surprisingly similar in many ways, that included bad ways as well as good ways. All societies and cultures have examples of people who are unreasonable, prejudiced, self-righteous, mean, or are just really, really unhappy individuals. Can't be avoided. It's natural variability in action. I think we may be seeing examples of that last instance here.

Another lesson I've learned when dealing with people is that sometimes, no matter how hard to one tries to accommodate these individuals, nothing one does is going to make a difference. They're not happy. They're not going to be happy. They're not going to allow you to try to make them happy. And that's just the way it is.

Sometimes it's nothing you've said or done, it's merely your presence alone that is antagonizing to them. In these cases the thing to do is to simply smile, wish them the best, then quietly step around them and keep moving forward along with everyone else. You can rest assured that before you, it was someone else that was infuriating them. And after you it will be someone new making them angry yet again.

All you can do is try your best, then quietly walk away to keep from making things worse.

Ken

StoneNYC
12-11-2013, 03:07 AM
I have a simple suggestion, it may or may not even work, but what if we simply change the name so that it's more clear that this is a universal exchange?

Perhaps calling it the "worldwide print exchange"

And making it very clear in the beginning, that those who wish to only receive and or send prints within their country for shipping or other reasons, should indicate so and their sign up.

Then the Europeans that want to only be in Europe and ship in Europe can do so, and the Americans can do the same, and those that want to exchange worldwide and can afford it and have no issue with it can do so?

As far as Mustafa, PLEASE I ask you, just stop calling the nude images "sluts" and other derogatory words? It is unkind and inappropriate. It may be acceptable where you are to use such words, but it is not here on an international forum, it is rude, and unwelcoming, and I've tried and tried to respect you, but it's going too far. Please refrain from using such language. Thank you.

TheToadMen
12-11-2013, 03:32 AM
If we'd change the name, make it a "worldwide BPX". The "blind" part of the exchange is what makes it so interesting.

I wouldn't allow too much shipping restrictions in the WBPX, because it's worldwide and it could become unmanageable (is that even a proper english word?). The extra shipping costs are relatively low when you take all the other costs into account.

One or two "local senders" is doable but I wouldn't advertise it. You know what you sign up for in the WBPX and there are already some additional more local exchanges.

Heck, I'll even ship to Belgium.

StoneNYC
12-11-2013, 03:56 AM
If we'd change the name, make it a "worldwide BPX". The "blind" part of the exchange is what makes it so interesting.

I wouldn't allow too much shipping restrictions in the WBPX, because it's worldwide and it could become unmanageable (is that even a proper english word?). The extra shipping costs are relatively low when you take all the other costs into account.

One or two "local senders" is doable but I wouldn't advertise it. You know what you sign up for in the WBPX and there are already some additional more local exchanges.

Heck, I'll even ship to Belgium.

Well the major issue here from what I'm gathering from the European side, is that the many Europeans want to exchange with each other only, rather than exchanging with other continents, so that's why I suggested offering it as a specific option, that way it will attract people that only want to exchange within Europe and be inclusive of that sect, while still maintaining one singular pool of participants?

I think the blind part kind of also is confusing for some, and because of that might turn away some.

I know it sounds goofy, but ... "Worldwide Surprise Print Exchange" or better yet! "Worldwide Mystery Print Exchange" that sounds more interesting.. OH a MYSTERY! I wonder what that's about, I'll go check out that print exchange because it caught my eye...

I know it's sounds so simple, but sometimes the title really can catch your eye and make you check something out you normally would skip over.

I know when I first joined I skipped over the blind print exchange because I didn't really understand it, and it didn't sound very interesting... It was only later when someone pointed out to me that I actually read through the description and then got interested.

By the way you did use the right word, unmanageable :) that's correct.

Ian Grant
12-11-2013, 04:14 AM
Well the major issue here from what I'm gathering from the European side, is that the many Europeans want to exchange with each other only, rather than exchanging with other continents, so that's why I suggested offering it as a specific option, that way it will attract people that only want to exchange within Europe and be inclusive of that sect, while still maintaining one singular pool of participants?

I still can't understand why there can't be a simple European e print exchange without objections etc from a few, there were none made when Australian APUG members did their own.

It's not a case of not wishing to exchange with other continents at all, rather a need for additional localised exchanges (as in the Australian case). There's been regional and local APUG events for many years and many of us take part and some of us organise them. As I said before there's a risk of alienating APUG members if localised/regional events/exchanges etc are criticised all the time, few realise that APUG lost a large number of active UK members about 5 years ago. We don't want something similar happening again.

Ian

TheToadMen
12-11-2013, 04:21 AM
Hi Stone,
As I tried to explain before, that's NOT the issue. It seems I didn't make my case very well. We Europeans do like to exchange with everyone anywhere in the world. Is was maybe more a feeling that Europeans often couldn't join since some events are limited to CONUS only (sometimes) so they were discouraged to participate. But that doesn't mean they don't want to. Look at the sign up for BPX-19. Many European members are already on the list.

The issue I'm making - and only that - is that it could be nice to have an additional European BPX as well, like there is an "Australia & New Zealand Print Exchange". The BPX up till now has only two rounds a year so I can manage to participate in an other exchange as well. And I was wondering if any of my close neighbors could too. It could even lead up to a some regional meetings within Europe in due time and more Europeans in the BPX-20 or BPX-21 and ...

We want to exchange continental and intercontinental. Just that simple.

Bert from Holland

Well the major issue here from what I'm gathering from the European side, is that the many Europeans want to exchange with each other only, rather than exchanging with other continents, ...

StoneNYC
12-11-2013, 04:28 AM
I still can't understand why there can't be a simple European e print exchange without objections etc from a few, there were none made when Australian APUG members did their own.

It's not a case of not wishing to exchange with other continents at all, rather a need for additional localised exchanges (as in the Australian case). There's been regional and local APUG events for many years and many of us take part and some of us organise them. As I said before there's a risk of alienating APUG members if localised/regional events/exchanges etc are criticised all the time, few realise that APUG lost a large number of active UK members about 5 years ago. We don't want something similar happening again.

Ian

Ian, I wouldn't care if the European members wanted to have their own, I think that's fine in itself, I just feel that if there is a European only exchange, that Worldwide exchange would suffer a huge loss in participants who could only do one exchange but not both.

Also as a side note, this is the ONLY exchange that I personally can participate in, because all the others seem to require wet printing which I don't (yet) do.

So I would be sad to see even less participants because they split off to do a more local one.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what I think. If you want to do something on your own, just do it, I just think the current exchange would suffer a loss of many European participants.

Ian Grant
12-11-2013, 10:28 AM
Also as a side note, this is the ONLY exchange that I personally can participate in, because all the others seem to require wet printing which I don't (yet) do.



Personally I'm not interested in non analog print exchanges it goes against the whole ethos of APUG, I hadn't realised they existed here.

Ian

StoneNYC
12-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Personally I'm not interested in non analog print exchanges it goes against the whole ethos of APUG, I hadn't realised they existed here.

Ian

Well the BPX just allows some leniency for people like me who can't print Cibichrome prints because it doesn't exist, so they allow you to scan the transparency and send it to a printer to be light-jet printed, it's still a chemical print, but has hybrid workflow.

If that's not acceptable to you, I guess no European BPX needs to exist and the problem is solved ;)

MattKing
12-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Personally I'm not interested in non analog print exchanges it goes against the whole ethos of APUG, I hadn't realised they existed here.

Ian

The Postcard exchange has always included that flexibility. Stone participated in the previous BPX with a print from a colour transparency printed on colour photographic paper from a scan.

paul_c5x4
12-11-2013, 12:02 PM
Also as a side note, this is the ONLY exchange that I personally can participate in, because all the others seem to require wet printing which I don't (yet) do.

Might I suggest looking at the Postcard Exchange (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum179/97656-postcard-exchange-faq.html) - The rules are a little more relaxed and you can send LightJet prints without risk of being ostracised.... Just don't do what some guy did a while back and send out a bunch of store bought postcards.

Ian Grant
12-11-2013, 12:27 PM
Well the BPX just allows some leniency for people like me who can't print Cibichrome prints because it doesn't exist, so they allow you to scan the transparency and send it to a printer to be light-jet printed, it's still a chemical print, but has hybrid workflow.

Thank you for clearing that up, your post seemed to indicate any non analog print was acceptable.


If that's not acceptable to you, I guess no European BPX needs to exist and the problem is solved ;)

Whether I might chose to participate has nothing to do with the possible existence of a European BPX that's up to the Organiser and sufficient interest.

Ian

Christopher Walrath
12-11-2013, 12:48 PM
The BPX, again, will still be an international exchange. I am reading that there is NO resistance to regional exchanges (ie. AU/NZ). I think, again, a European exchange is an awesome idea. My hope, again, is that this main exchange will still draw an international flavor. So, the only question that remains in my mind...

Where is this new European exchange? Someone take that bull by the horns and make this happen.

StoneNYC
12-11-2013, 12:49 PM
Thank you for clearing that up, your post seemed to indicate any non analog print was acceptable.



Whether I might chose to participate has nothing to do with the possible existence of a European BPX that's up to the Organiser and sufficient interest.

Ian

Ian,

You know that I respect you, I've mentioned this before, so please don't take this the wrong way as I believe it is an American idiom, but you are the one who seems to be the squeaky wheel here, I do see if you other people from Europe saying they'd like an exchange, but you seem to be the one who is the most stern about the prospect, and are the one carrying the weight of the idea that most Europeans would prefer their own.

I could be wrong, but I don't see a bunch of Americans claiming that they only want to have an American exchange, and wouldn't you think from your perspective, if you heard us say well we only want an American exchange no outsiders allowed that could somehow be perceived as elitist or inclusive, and sort of hurt peoples feelings? The idea behind this forum is that is international, all inclusive of film, so why should we segregate all of these different exchanges, when we can do the same thing with everyone, are the images that exist in Europe so much better that you wouldn't want something that came from America? Ultimately what is the real difference between an American photographer shooting film any European photographer shooting film?

I guess the ultimate question is why? Why do you need there to be something separate, what is the real reason that you want only Europeans to send and receive photos, what is the need to have separate exchanges?

StoneNYC
12-11-2013, 12:54 PM
Might I suggest looking at the Postcard Exchange (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum179/97656-postcard-exchange-faq.html) - The rules are a little more relaxed and you can send LightJet prints without risk of being ostracised.... Just don't do what some guy did a while back and send out a bunch of store bought postcards.

I don't happen to have that many images that are shot on transparencies that I would want to send as postcards, as it is my favorite transparencies are mostly Panoramic's which would not fit on standard postcards. Most of my imagery is black and white, and unfortunately as far as I would understand it, it's LESS ok to send black-and-white images that could in theory be printed on standard printer paper with an enlarger. My reason for using the light-jet for me, is that I don't print optically, I don't have the ability yet, someday yes, but not yet, so I'm basically using the loophole of sending transparencies, in order to be part of the exchange, if I were sending black-and-white prints, I would be required to send standard optical prints something that I don't have the ability to produce, and I feel like I would be cheating people by sending them a black-and-white prints that was made with a hybrid process.

If I'm wrong about this, and it would be okay to send light-jet printed images that are black-and-white, then sure maybe I'll be part of that. But it also seems a lot easier to send a single print that is large, then to send a bunch of little prints, and so I chose the BPX.

Christopher Walrath
12-11-2013, 12:54 PM
Stone, an honest question. Why not. Might encourage others to participate who heretofore had not.

Truzi
12-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Ian, if I may address Stone's comment about being a squeaky wheel. I am not sure how familiar you are with U.S. colloquialisms, but there are two similar yet opposite ones:

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Typically positive; an encouragement.
The empty can rattles the most. Typically negative; an admonition.

I just don't want to see this degrade into a flame war - so lets assume Stone meant it as he stated it, unless he corrects us.

Ian Grant
12-11-2013, 01:42 PM
Ian,

You know that I respect you, I've mentioned this before, so please don't take this the wrong way as I believe it is an American idiom, but you are the one who seems to be the squeaky wheel here, I do see if you other people from Europe saying they'd like an exchange, but you seem to be the one who is the most stern about the prospect, and are the one carrying the weight of the idea that most Europeans would prefer their own.

I could be wrong, but I don't see a bunch of Americans claiming that they only want to have an American exchange, and wouldn't you think from your perspective, if you heard us say well we only want an American exchange no outsiders allowed that could somehow be perceived as elitist or inclusive, and sort of hurt peoples feelings? The idea behind this forum is that is international, all inclusive of film, so why should we segregate all of these different exchanges, when we can do the same thing with everyone, are the images that exist in Europe so much better that you wouldn't want something that came from America? Ultimately what is the real difference between an American photographer shooting film any European photographer shooting film?

I guess the ultimate question is why? Why do you need there to be something separate, what is the real reason that you want only Europeans to send and receive photos, what is the need to have separate exchanges?

I don't need there to be a separate European BPX, but if there is one I'd consider supporting it. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of photographic history in terms of image making should realise there are quite different histories and traditions of photography in different parts of the world. Beaumont Newhall's History of Photography is very biased towards US tradition and Peter Turner wrote a more UK/European biased "History of Photography" to reflect our traditions this side of the Atlantic. I have a great many US and European books of photographs and have visited many hundreds of exhibitions around the world and I can assure you that there are quite differing approaches although some cross-over between US and European photography at all levels.

At no stage have I said that Europeans would prefer to split away from the main BPX's completely, the idea is for their own (additional) European BPX, what I have said is it's wrong to object to & criticise that idea. A UK forum was set up (by APUG subscribers) so that photographers could have their own exchanges and galleries, that lost APUG a lot (most) of active members from the UK and a few from other parts of Europe. I'm saying is a European BPX helps raise the profile healthy group of subscribers here boosting the European presence which ultimately leads to a greater cultural diversity of APUG as a whole.

There are APUG groups in the US who meet to share prints, here in the UK we lost too many APUG members to host APUG only events - now we meet cross forums (open to members of the main ones). A European BPX would help bring people together a and foster new friendships etc.

Ian

Christopher Walrath
12-11-2013, 02:37 PM
On a side note, I ashamedly was not aware of Turner's history, Ian. I have Beaumont's and you're right. I will have to acquire the other. Thanks a bunch.