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Whiteymorange
02-02-2006, 04:16 PM
I posted this set of pictures the other day in the LF forum but got very little response. I'm hopeful that someone can tell me something about this type of lens so I risk the wrath of the photo gods and the moderators by repeating some of it here.

This lens baffles me in that there is no flange and no shade on the front but there is an stop plate some halfway down the barrel. The image circle is about 4". Maybe a quarter plate camera?

The plate in the barrel moves, though it is not clear that it should. Any sense of where it should live, front to back?

top view (http://www.apug.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4009)
side view (http://www.apug.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4011)
and the picture taken with it. (http://www.apug.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4013)

Ole
02-02-2006, 04:26 PM
Looks most like a projector lens to me?

The plate is a stop - it should live somewhere in between the lens elements. About midway.

I saw it in the LF forum, but hoped someone else would answer. Most of my lenses have at least some writing on them to help with identification.

Nathan Smith
02-02-2006, 05:01 PM
Yup, looks like a projector lens to me, too. I believe Jim Galli had a thread a few weeks ago (?) where he showed a shot taken with one of these. As I recall it had the same look as the pic you took. I have one of these in a box that I keep meaning to clean up and try ... how did you mount it?

Nathan

Whiteymorange
02-02-2006, 07:25 PM
Yup... My first thought was a projector lens - it has that look of fitting in something else, like the ektagraphic projection lenses form the mid to late part of the last century (sounds ancient, doesn't it? I mean the 60's though the 80's.) but it doesn't have the gear track on the side, only the threads at the rear.

Ole, the writing is simply unreadable there is an "M" I think, and the number 8. I keep wondering if some chemical or UV light would bring out a ghost of the old varnish and lettering. Don't know why it would, just the part of me that loves mysteries hopes for some pseudo-science to help me out.

The stop is now about half way down the tube. I'm going to move it and remove it to see what I get. Least I can do is waste some film on an old piece. I have some J&C pro that was defective (but cheap!) just for this kind of thing.

Thanks for trying anyway, guys. the silence after my first post was deafening.

Paul Sorensen
02-02-2006, 07:43 PM
I keep wondering if some chemical or UV light would bring out a ghost of the old varnish and lettering. Don't know why it would, just the part of me that loves mysteries hopes for some pseudo-science to help me out.
That's it, no more CSI for you. :D

DKT
02-02-2006, 08:06 PM
maybe it's a lantern slide projector lens....I dunno, really, but I had to dupe a bunch of 100+ yr old lantern slides at work recently, and they wanted to recreate the bona fide projector, which was basically like a candle focused into the glass slides by way of a simple condenser...the originals were on wooden mounts that were maybe 4x8 inches or so, with the images as glass (hand colored) positives that were about 3 inches in diameter, yet circular....

just a thought, otherwise I have no idea what it is, but--I looked at some of these old projectors working on this project and they had bellows as well, so it's not as sophisticated as a helical mount to focus the lens....that stop in the middle?If it's like a waterhouse stop, you should be able to pull it out? otherwise, I have no idea really..

jimgalli
02-02-2006, 08:12 PM
I've come across several of these that were a spring held fit in another sleeve that went into the projector. It was just friction but you could simply slide it in or out for focus. Cheaper than the gear drive. Silence means we're just guessing too. What kind of reflections do you get shining a penlight in? 6 brites = triplet. 4 brites at rear and bright dim bright at front = Petzval. bright dim bright at each end = RR but I've only found triplet's and Petzval's so far.

Whiteymorange
02-02-2006, 08:22 PM
I'll check tomorrow on the reflections. I left the thing at school. And Nathan, I had a sort of plastic flange, whose original use I cannot guess, since it came in a box of stuff that included parts of various cameras and camera stuff from an industrial lab. The lens was a good fit into it and then the whole thing slid into a lensboard for the Anniversary Speed. I was going to make a board for it but this was a quick fit and I do like quick. Impatient sort, I'm afraid. Hence the reposting. Sorry if I stepped on peoples thoughts, I'm just like my students - "Can I have it now, sir? please sir, can I have it now? please?.."

Bad form. I will practice patience.

vet173
02-03-2006, 12:25 PM
I've come across several of these that were a spring held fit in another sleeve that went into the projector. It was just friction but you could simply slide it in or out for focus. Cheaper than the gear drive. Silence means we're just guessing too. What kind of reflections do you get shining a penlight in? 6 brites = triplet. 4 brites at rear and bright dim bright at front = Petzval. bright dim bright at each end = RR but I've only found triplet's and Petzval's so far. Thanks Jim, for the info on how to check these lenses. Now I will be able to add that to my previous knowledge, " Old ".

Whiteymorange
02-03-2006, 03:59 PM
Oh-oh... I'm being challenged here (picture poor, benighted soul staring at lens with a bright light and his tongue hanging out)

The front reflects large bright-small bright-large bright. The middle, smaller bright image will separate into two images if the lens is tilted so that this reflection comes close to the edge. The larger bright reflections do not do this.

The rear is two brights. If there are other reflections, I did not see them. Too dim for this too dim soul? I think I need a hands-on helper. I'll bring it to the workshop in Springfield and seek enlightenment.

Following the rule of two houses (whatever you're looking for, it's at the other house) I left my other Petzval and RR lenses at my house (I'm at school now) I can check those for comparison this weekend. Me and the Missus are steppin' out tonight.

Thanks.

Ole
02-03-2006, 04:08 PM
With a little attention to the size of the reflections, which way they move when you tilt the lens, and how fast they move, an amazing lot of lens construction details can be learned. The problem is that it takes 1) Practice, 2) Reference lenses, and 3) a good book of lens construction data.

My own knowledge on the subject has been sufficient to convince me that 1) ad odd old wide angle anastigmat is an Angulon clone; and 2) one of my "Rectilinear" lenses is not a "Rapid Rectilinear".

So which way do your reflections move? :D

jimgalli
02-03-2006, 08:57 PM
Just had 2 marguerita's with my bride and the reflections are swirling. What kinda lens do I have. Actually, Whitey, yours sounds like some class of small projection petzval. You'll undoubtedly find the middle and end reflections are actually pretty close together.

Whiteymorange
02-04-2006, 10:31 AM
The movement of my reflections is, as it seems to be in Jim's case, entirely dependent on how much Dewars I swill prior to testing. I did the penlight test on a couple of lenses I believe to be Petzvals and I think they are all the same and it's bright-dim-bright up front (simplified when the light is moved farther away and the cell is removed from the barrel) and the rear seems to have two brights (as opposed to the viewer, who is not too brights.) Clearly I'm missing something but, hey.... What else is new?

Time to move on and take pictures with the thing rather than staring at it. I'll try to move the stop around and take it out and post the pictures.

Many thanks, again, for the indulgence and wisdom of this great group of teachers and virtual friends.

Photographica
02-04-2006, 05:25 PM
Actually, I can tell you quite a bit about the lens.

It is a camera lens, and while I have never seen these on a projector, I don't know why they could not be used in such an application.

In some collector circles these are described simply as "Tube Lenses" the male end screw threads of your lense may screw into a brass plate along with several other tubes to make multiple exposures on the same plate at the same time. I have several 4-tube configurations on different cameras and one single tube on a Simon Wing multiplying camera.

The most most desirable of this type of lens was manufactured by A. Darlot (also Jamin et Darlot) of Paris, France. Their lenses appeared on many American photographer's cameras with the name of B.F & Co. (Benjamin French) who imported many Darlot lenses.

There's a lot more history surrounding these lenses.....

I have, and have seen, several size tube lenses for different cameras. Some are marked on the outside with B.F & Co., Darlot, and some with just a number. If it is of Darlot origin, you will possibly find the Darlot name inscribed on the edge of a lens element. It looks as if it were written in pencil on the glass.

Dating: Jamin started the optical company in 1822. Darlot reportedly worked for him for a while and then purchased the business around 1828. I believe the company survived in name until the mid 1990's.

Your lens, whether a Darlot or copy, probably dates around the 1860's or later as these lense are found on that era camera.

I don't have a photo of a 4-tube lens on my web site but there is a catalog picture of an interesting shutter on a 4-tube Bon Ton that I posted. That will give you the idea of the 4-tube arrangement and the brass mounting plate:

http://www.cwriley.com/Photica/shutters.htm

Hope this helps.
Bill Riley

Whiteymorange
02-04-2006, 06:09 PM
Ah! Good things come to those who wait. Thank you Bill Riley. I wondered whether it might be a lens from a multi image camera, like the ones used to make 4, 8 or even 12 tin-type images ( I have a book of gem images of distant relatives from New Bedford, MA circa 1880's.) The interesting thing for me is that the lens comes from the dresser drawer of my recently deceased father-in-law, who got me started in this interest by giving me a Rochester Camera Manufacturing Co. 4x5 that had belonged to his grandfather in 1902. This lens may well have belonged to the same gentleman, an avid photographer in the first decades of the 20th century. Here's his self portrait done on that camera and scanned from the glass plate. It didn't print as well as it scanned for some reason - probably my own low skill level.

By the way, if that link is your site, thank you for that as well. I have spent many hours there, enjoying your helpful, wide-ranging and informative text and great pictures.

Dave Wooten
02-04-2006, 06:12 PM
Hey Bill Riley,

thanks for sharing your site, very interesting and I love the glass plate photos..

Dave in Vegas

smieglitz
02-04-2006, 06:59 PM
I thought it might have been a tube from a multi-lens camera as I have been searching for one of these for awhile. I'm trying to find one that covers sixth-plate but vignettes on quarter-plate a bit. If anyone has one for sale or trade, please let me know.

I believe Dallmeyer also marketed such lenses as Extra Quick-Acting Portrait Miniature & Medallion lenses though that is just conjecture on my part from looking at an old Anthony camera catalog. The Miniatures were for 2"x2" plates wide-open or sixth plates when used with stops, and the Medallions had a rear focus of 1".

Joe

Photographica
02-04-2006, 10:17 PM
Here's his self portrait done on that camera and scanned from the glass plate.
By the way, if that link is your site, thank you for that as well. I have spent many hours there, enjoying your helpful, wide-ranging and informative text and great pictures.

I love old glass negatives. Especially when there is a story to them... Your picture for example indicates that the photo was taken during early or late summer....

The time-and-strike column mantel clock shows the time of about 6:15 (guessing pm). If the lighting is assumed to be from a window... I would guess that it would have to be late spring or early fall in New England....

I may be all wrong but it sounds good anyway :)

I suggest you try to get a real good scan of his rings... it looks like he is trying to show you something....

Bill Riley

Photographica
02-04-2006, 10:21 PM
Hey Bill Riley,

thanks for sharing your site, very interesting and I love the glass plate photos..

Dave in Vegas


Thank you for visiting.... I wish that I could put more on the site but time keeps it modest for now... I've got a lot more fun stuff to add....

Cheers,
Bill Riley

Whiteymorange
02-05-2006, 09:09 PM
I love old glass negatives. Especially when there is a story to them... Your picture for example indicates that the photo was taken during early or late summer....

The time-and-strike column mantel clock shows the time of about 6:15 (guessing pm). If the lighting is assumed to be from a window... I would guess that it would have to be late spring or early fall in New England....

I may be all wrong but it sounds good anyway :)

I suggest you try to get a real good scan of his rings... it looks like he is trying to show you something....

Bill Riley

Rudolf Rudner came over from Germany in 1902. He settled in CT, where he worked in a mill, bringing his family in about 7 months later. We have many pictures of him and many taken by him. In many of them he assumes the sort of pose that was common at the time - proud, formal and dressed to impress. And the mustache just kept getting bigger. Tonight my wife uncovered a studio shot from his early married life in Germany and another, more casual portrait from the last decade of his life. Same strong look. The glasswork on the table and the rings are prize possessions and the setting is meant to show off a comfortable home and some measure of wealth by his standards. This may have been a portrait to be sent back home, "Look Ma, I'm doing well here!"

We may even have the rings. We've become the chroniclers of the families and have even gone to the parts of Europe from where our families originated - earliest emmigrants on record for us - mid 17th century, latest- Rudolf and his bride. I've been facinated by the photography of families and the stories that come out when old photos are brought out.

Oops, this isn't a geneology forum, is it...? Sorry, but this is what got me into old cameras.